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Will, Canon, Nikon etc Ditch APS-C sensors in favour of Full Frame

Discussion in 'General Equipment Chat & Advice' started by hodgo, Nov 8, 2007.

  1. hodgo

    hodgo Well-Known Member

    Thanks Alan, I do like the look of the Sigma 12 - 24 & would probably use it quite often, the fact it's FF compatible is a big plus as it's one less lens to worry about should the day come when we have no choice but to buy FF.
  2. alanS

    alanS Well-Known Member

    It's a revelation on an APS-C so just imaging what it'll be like on a FF.

    One interesting thing is that it'll focus very close and when hyper focal focussing you can use relatively wide apertures, f8 or so.

    BTW - One of my nieces is doing a degree (or something) in photography in Preston and when I showed her my 12-24 and she tried it on her 350D she couldn't stop giggling, she loved it. I felt guilty taking it off her.
  3. El_Sid

    El_Sid Well-Known Member

    Uni of South Lancashire or whatever they call it now? I went there when it was Preston Poly...
  4. alanS

    alanS Well-Known Member

    That'll be the one.

    She's enjoying it, equiped with her Canon 30D and a Nikon SLR I gave her.
  5. El_Sid

    El_Sid Well-Known Member

    I imagine it's changed a lot from my day...

    Think I'll stop before I go into 'old fogey reminisces' mode... :D
  6. beejaybee

    beejaybee Marvin

    Yes I quite understand that. And it's ironic that, as a consequence of the E-1 being unexpectedly large & heavy, I've eventually bought a larger, heavier body.

    Agreed. But the Olympus E series wide-angles aren't much, if at all, smaller and lighter than full-frame equivalents; and I've never been in the habit of carrying a lens longer than 200mm. The Canon 70-200 f/4 L IS is not excessively large or heavy for me, and produces images capable of standing a bit of "digital zoom".

    I agree, I don't understand either.

    My original post agreed with you.
  7. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    Not sure I really inderstand this complaint - AP, for instance, was full of praise for the E-1 and generally has been pretty positive about 4/3. OK the E-300 wasn't that well-received, but then IMHO it was a rather poor camera, especially before the various firmware updates. What have I missed?
  8. Iloca

    Iloca Well-Known Member

    Hi Nick,

    not AP specifically although I would point out that Chris Gatcum was quite open to the E-System and that may have balanced things out somewhat.

    No in general I think that the photographic press have been negative towards the E-System, any cons picked at like a scab, advantages glossed over. Innovation viewed with Blinkers on untill the same 'innovation' is adopted by Canikon (SSWF, Live View).

    Maybe as an E-System beliver I'm overly sensitive, on the other hand if you're not an E-System user you might not notice. Maybe the reality lies somewhere between.

    Doesn't really matter at the end of the day (unless you need to use iso 3200) ;)

    [edit]To be honest i wouldn't have contributed to this thread at all but for the comments suggesting that a 4/3rds camera will be overtaken by a camera phone. Not only does it have no basis in fact but it's insulting to me personally to have my choice of camera rubbished in this manner. :mad:

  9. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    And is clearly plain rubbish. For exactly the same reasons why I don't believe 4/3 can overtake full frame for quality, but even more so, there's no hope for tiny sensors to compete seriously with 4/3. I actually see 4/3 migrating into smaller platforms, such as fixed-lens compacts etc, and putting the squeeze on small sensors.

    But to the main debate, I think the 4/3 system has got a reasonably fair press - in all honesty, the supposed advantages of the format haven't actually delivered much, certainly if you don't count the E-1, yet the negative points have held it back a little in some areas - originally lack of system availability, now really just high ISO performance and relatively limited dynamic range - nothing that's really a serious limit on the system for most (probably the vast majority of) users, though. The problem with the rest of the innovations is precisely that they can be (and have been!) nicked - although Canon did actually get there first with Live View, I suppose. It's possible to see the 4/3 system thus from a neutral perspective: a technically clever system with average* image quality despite excellent lenses, and somewhat restricted system availability - and that's I think the way most have depicted it.

    * I do mean average, I don't mean it negatively - it's on a par with most.
  10. Iloca

    Iloca Well-Known Member

    Nor do I Nick, nor Olympus for that matter. It can however come reasonably close 90% of the time in a significantly smaller, lighter and possibly cheaper package though.

    IMO anyway :cool:

    I wonder how good a 'Full Frame'/FX Olympus would be if they applied what they've learned from working with a sensor 1/4 the area. Might be pretty good :D

  11. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    I'm sure it would be. Clever people at Olympus!
  12. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    I agree!
  13. beejaybee

    beejaybee Marvin

    That's what I meant.

    You're right, it's crazy.

    I do feel that the small sensor compact market is being seriously undermined by the camera phone, and that this trend will continue, based on convenience rather than image quality. However there is a world of difference between small sensor compacts and four-thirds systems; much more than seperates four-thirds and full-frame DSLRs.

    If we go back say 35 years then we had the emerging Instamatic market, the 35mm SLR market and the MF reflex market. There was room for all of them; no-one in their right mind would have claimed that an Instamatic was as capable technically as a 35mm SLR, and few people would have claimed that a 35mm SLR could deliver the same image quality as a Hasselblad or a Rollei. That didn't stop 35mm SLRs being very successful indeed.

    Similarly there's no reason why four-thirds DSLRs shouldn't be successful, providing that everyone (including the supporters of the format) accepts that the relatively small sensor does impose technical limitations, just as the small size of the 35mm frame relative to medium or large format does with film cameras.
  14. beejaybee

    beejaybee Marvin

    Well - four-thirds sized sensors on compacts would be a positive move - but four-thirds is really a combination of sensor and mount system, and mount systems are more or less irrelevant to compacts. A four-thirds rangefinder camera for unobtrusive street photography might be an interesting concept.
  15. beejaybee

    beejaybee Marvin

    I think I hinted at that somewhere above. Canon and Nikon are to some extent hindered by retaining the old mount; if Olympus (or anyone else) does apply four-thirds principles to a large sensor camera with a new mount system then the results could be quite startling.
  16. Iloca

    Iloca Well-Known Member

    Absolutely, an Olympus Ace 4/3rds

    But wait moment, supposing the made an E-300/330 style Porro Mirror DSLR the size of an E-410?
  17. Iloca

    Iloca Well-Known Member

    The problem would be that Olympus would need to U-Turn on the idea of telecentricity otherwise the lens mount would be significantly larger than a current 'Full Frame/FX DSLR. They could probably go bigger than 4/3rds without increasing the mount too much but by how much is anyones guess, the current lens mount dia is roughly twice that of the image circle IIRC.
  18. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    Could be interesting. It's in this territory - genuinely compact system cameras, be it RF or SLR, that I think 4/3 can create a massive niche for itself. That's where the sensor size is without doubt an advantage, and for 4/3 there's not just Oly experience, but Leica as well - if between them they can't come up with a modern-day Pen F or CL (or most intriguingly, both, sharing the same lenses) then they don't deserve to succeed. :)
  19. hodgo

    hodgo Well-Known Member

    Hi All

    The good news is I've just had a PM from Angela, and she'll be looking into the APS-C - Full Frame matter in the Christmas Issue of Amateur Photographer, BIG THANKS Angela it should hopefully give us a little more insight into how things are headed.

  20. Brian

    Brian Venerable Elder

    Wonderful, Wow..... ;)

    Who is Angela? Actually come to that, what is an APS-C?

    Still never mind it all sounds rivetting.

    Anyway if that's the good news what's the bad news?

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