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Trump ban

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Zou, Jan 29, 2017.

  1. Wheelu

    Wheelu Well-Known Member

    Yup, despite what the economists might say, there's a large element of luck involved, depends which way the wind is blowing...
     
  2. PhotoEcosse

    PhotoEcosse Well-Known Member

    Some of the Scottish marches were very amusing on account of the language used on the placards, although I doubt that Trump would know what bawbags and roasters are. One of the funniest placards was carried by St Andrews (the poncy English university on the east coast of Scotland) students. It merely said "If St Andrews is protesting, it must be f*cking bad!"
     
  3. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    But it helps ... A Lot.
     
  4. beatnik69

    beatnik69 Well-Known Member

    I think it would be funny to allow him in, then as he is driven down the Mall (or whatever road) have the crowds all turn around and moon him, possibly with additional buttock slapping for comedic effect.
     
  5. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    Please elaborate. There are undoubtedly many (as a number, not a %) gun owners who have issues, but the vast majority have guns perfectly responsibly.
     
    PhotoEcosse and Roger Hicks like this.
  6. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    The guns versus deaths argument is one where facts fly out the window, probably because they aren't what people expect.
    • The highest proportion of gun related homicides occur in Honduras (67 per 100,000 inhabitants) and Venezuela (59 per 100.000 inhabitants) but these are both countries with relatively low ownership of firearms (6.2% and 10.7% respectively).
    • The U.S. has by far the highest ownership of guns at 112% but a surprisingly low gun related homicide rate of less than 4 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants.
    • As a comparison, the UK has an ownership rate of 6.6% (which surprised me) and a death rate of 0.06 per 100,000 inhabitants, making it the 9th safest country in the world in terms of gun related murders.
    • If you want to stand virtually no chance of being shot, you could move to Iceland which, oddly enough, has a gun ownership rate of 30.3% or Luxembourg which has half that rate of ownership at 15.3%.
     
    Zou, PhotoEcosse and Roger Hicks like this.
  7. AlexMonro

    AlexMonro Old Grand Part Deux

    Urban legend, in particular the title of a novel by James Elroy, has it that the fee for JFK was $6000. Allowing for inflation since 1963, I reckon a hundred grand should cover it.

    I'd bung in a couple of quid... :)
     
  8. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member



    I do not associate Guns with Responsible.
     
  9. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    My late father in law was once excused jury duty in a murder trial in California when he told them "I don't see why anyone has to shoot anyone. I've had guns for over 50 years and I've never shot anyone". He had been the captain of his university pistol shooting team in the 1930s and owned eight or ten pistols and four or five long guns. Frances and I still own three of the pistols, which are still in California: a .22 Hi-Standard (not very reliable), a .44 Ruger stainless-frame magnum, and an original .45 Colt National Match which he bought when he was at university. And I once bought a .44 Colt black powder revolver when I was working on a book on the American Civil War. At school I got my Marksman badge shooting .22 rifles in the Empire Test.

    I've never shot anyone, either.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  10. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Terry,

    That is not an argument. It is a statement of empty prejudice.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    Learning likes this.
  11. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member


    CDC figures show... that there were 33,880 gun deaths per year in the USA that is 93 per day, this does not include serious injuries injuries.
    (There were nearly twice as many suspected suicides than murders.)
    In households with Guns Five times as many women are killed in gun incidents than those with out.
     
  12. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    Then I am prejudiced against Guns.

    I have served in the Army, and qualified as a marksman. And in the early fifties shot more rabbits than you could eat in a lifetime.
    Before myxomatosis we cleared at least one goods truck, full of rabbits from our farm each year. Most were trapped all the stragglers were shot.
     
  13. PhotoEcosse

    PhotoEcosse Well-Known Member

    Much the same.

    I was one of the million+ gun owners in UK for about 55 years from age 16 to age 71. I eventually sold the last of them and surrendered my certificate when I moved house and did not want to have to have a steel security cabinet installed in my new home and had rarely gone shooting in the preceding few years.

    By definition, lawful gun owners in UK are amongst the most responsible citizens on account of the the fact that their mental health and lack of criminal activity are regularly checked.

    Like Roger, despite having fired an estimated half-million shots during that period, I have never shot anyone (or attempted to).

    At the time that I had guns I occasionally asked myself if I ever could shoot someone. At the time my daughter was aged about 10 - 14 I conceded to myself that I might hunt someone down and kill them if they raped my wee girl. That was the only circumstance that I could imagine - but I could never admit it publicly at the time, as it would have meant an instant revocation of my certificate.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  14. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Terry,

    Then again, the population of the USA is quite big: about 40x that of Honduras. This is why Andrew's analysis, in terms of deaths per 100,000 population, is more meaningful than your absolute numbers. I was surprised it was as low as he said, though I haven't verified his numbers. ANY number is too high, of course, but that doesn't affect the validity of his arguments.

    Out of idle curiosity I just checked France: just under 3 homicides per 100,000, so close to 100x the UK figure, and a bit over one quarter of the US figure. Getting a gun license here is not easy, which is why I haven't bothered and my guns are still in California.

    The "deaths by firearms" figures usually include suicides, which is one area in which the ready availability of guns really does bump up the figures in the USA (about 2/3 of firearms deaths). Also, of course, there's a question of who shoots whom. Probably quite a lot of deaths, in any country, are gang related.

    This is only Wikipedia but it's probably as good a starting point as any.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
  15. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Terry,

    Fine. But you're still not actually presenting any arguments.

    I hate eating kidneys. But as a means of evidence-based decision making for whole populations, this is about as meaningful as your prejudice against firearms.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  16. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    I did not give any, because they are so well rehearsed
    I learned long ago that gun supporters do not care. so why waste my time just peaching to the converted.
     
  17. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Terry,

    You mean like giving actual numbers, as Andrew did? What do you mean by "well rehearsed" in this context? Surely, pitting prejudice against statistics is the very opposite of rehearsing well: it is refusing to rehearse at all.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  18. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    My numbers were for homicides only and equate to 33 deaths per day. If you add on the suicides by gun of 6.69 per 100,000 inhabitants and the relatively small number of accidental or undetermined gun deaths we come to the same figure. BTW, I'm not a supporter of unfettered gun ownership but I don't think you can or should argue against something without getting all the facts out in the open.
     
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  19. willie45

    willie45 Well-Known Member

    Maybe all the other white folks are more tolerant than bigoted white folks ;)
     
  20. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    There are many reasons to dislike Trump and I expect that there are as many reasons for vsigning that partition.
    Also the partition is about a state 'do' at Buck House' and not a working visit.
    I see no problem with Trump landing at an RAF station and being choppered to a weekend at Chequers. This is respectful to a visiting president but without the full endorsement of a state visit. Trump is bright enough to know the difference. Message received without a word being spoken. Such a visit would also prevent our esteemed visitor being subjected to a protest by us plebs.
     

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