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'Six people rule for no longer than we have to'

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Learning, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. WillieJ

    WillieJ Well-Known Member

    Curiosity piqued. Is that really an electric drill?
     
  2. SqueamishOssifrage

    SqueamishOssifrage Well-Known Member

    Quite. The whole concept of herd immunity was built up around major vaccination programs to eliminate diseases within a population, and to develop a plan to achieve it. It had nothing to do with letting a disease run rampant until the same result was obtained.
     
  3. SqueamishOssifrage

    SqueamishOssifrage Well-Known Member

    Regarding your first sentence, the fact that you believe it would cause civil unrest at a time of emergency indicates a sense of entitlement in the UK population that is probably a major cause of the spread of the virus.

    Regarding the second sentence, not only did a lot of countries close their borders, but the EU did adopt proposals for a coordinated response to travel within Europe during the pandemic earlier this month.
     
  4. daft_biker

    daft_biker Action Man!

    It is a right angle adapter for getting into tight spaces. I'd never heard of rivnuts before either.

    PSX_20200924_072320.jpg
     
  5. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    When you don't have a vaccine you have little choice but to let a disease run rampant if you want immunity. The issue is that you have to have an understanding of what effect that has on the herd. We don't have that understanding but we are acting as though we do. The result appears to be that we keep people away from the virus and they get no exposure to it, thus their immune systems don't develop and then when we allow contact again the infection rate rises. If we had controlled exposure we would be more likely to achieve herd immunity.
     
  6. John Farrell

    John Farrell Well-Known Member

    How long do you think it would take to infect around 42 million people - while managing the rate to avoid collapse of your health system? Remember, too, that the estimated rate of fatality from the virus is 0.5% to 1%. Happy to have 200,000 to 400,000 deaths?
     
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  7. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Rivnuts are better known inside the aviation community as Avdel Rivets and they have been around for over 50 years. They come under various trade names now.
     
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  8. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    Please communicate your proposal to Ms Sturgeon.
     
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  9. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    John, you have missed the point, one does not need to become infected to develop immunity one merely needs to be exposed. Some vaccines work by exposing the recipient to a weakened version of the disease which does not cause infection but does stimulate the immune system. What proportion of your 42 million have been exposed and developed some degree of immunity already?
     
  10. John Farrell

    John Farrell Well-Known Member

    To develop immunity, you need to be infected, or given a vaccine. Even those who are classed as asymptomatic infections have been infected with the virus, and may be able to infect others. So far, no one knows what proportion of people may have had mild or asymptomatic infections - the large scale serological tests needed to find this out haven't yet been done.
     
  11. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Not everybody who is exposed becomes infected but their immune system fights off the agent of infection.
     
  12. John Farrell

    John Farrell Well-Known Member

    This would only happen if the person had antibodies from a previous infection - interestingly, it is possible that some people have partial immunity to covid, due to previous infection by another coronavirus. To "fight off" the infectious agent, requires that one is infected, so that one's immune system can respond.
     
  13. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    I think John that we mean different things by "infected". What I mean is a situation where the virus is multiplying within the individual.
     
  14. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Here we see the difference between the mechanistic and the humanistic approach. Herd immunity may seem like a good idea but as anyone who's had multiple colds in a single season will tell you: the viruses don't always cooperate. :p
     
  15. WillieJ

    WillieJ Well-Known Member

    Feelings run high here regarding westminster using such things as brexit to grab back powers from devolution. If we need to close the Scotland England border then I personally have no problem with that. In fact I look foreward to the time when we have a hard border there anyway.
     
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  16. WillieJ

    WillieJ Well-Known Member

    Thanks
     
  17. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Herd immunity is the ONLY option it isn't just a good idea. The problem is that without a vaccine you can only achieve herd immunity by exposure which means a risk of infection, a vaccine removes the risk of infection.
     
  18. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    I haven't looked for confirmationary reports, but it has been said by those who should know, that the older we get, the less effective a vaccine is to stimulate the immune system into producing antibodies. So even if/when a vaccine is produced, it might do us oldies no good at all!
    (Based on flu vaccine studies).
     
  19. WillieJ

    WillieJ Well-Known Member

    Sorry bit of temper there. I should explain that I do not actually wish for a hard border with England I just regard it as the best way forward because of Brexit. I first joined the SNP in 1973 on a fairly niaive basis (I was young). I did not renew membership in 1973 because in the meantime the SNP dediced it wanted out of europe as well as the UK. I spent most of my life voting labour but could not stomach Torty Blair. 2014 Referndum I voted for independance on the ballance of what I thought was best because a) For most of my life my nation did not get the government it voted for, b) I had a bad feeling about the impoending Brexit referndum and c) the SNP has a policy of seeking entry to the UK (please do not bother mentioning Spain). The day after the results of the 2016 referendum were announced I rejoined the SNP. All my adult life I have regarded myself as a Scoyt first, a European second and my passport says I am British. As long as the UK remained part iof the EU then the EUs moderatiung influence on what right wing Tory Gvts could achieve meant it hardly worth the inevitable hiatus of independance. However brexit changes that and if that results in a hard border between scotland and england then that is regretable but, to my mind, its preferable to an on going hard border between scotland and the rest of europe.

    I do consider your remark about a sense of entitlement regarding objecting to the idea of a grossly incompetent Westminster administration assuming control to be innappropriate and unjustified.
     
  20. John Farrell

    John Farrell Well-Known Member

    I get the flu vaccine, and it certainly seems to prevent me getting the flu. The government here encourages those over 65 to get it (it's free for us - others pay $30) so they must believe it is effective. Interestingly, we had no flu season this winter, partly because there were almost 2 million doses of vaccine distributed, and partly because of the lockdown. We had no deaths from flu this year, and we usually have 400 - 500.
     

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