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Out of their tiny minds

Discussion in 'Fujifilm Cameras' started by RovingMike, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    The saga of my erratic 18 month old x10 moves on. Sent it to Fuji with a CD of just a few of its AF and AE errors and just got an estimate back of £317.84 to repair. No explanation of what is wrong, apology for producing a piece of rubbish that can't do the basics properly, just give us more than the cost of a brand new x20. I have honestly never dealt with such a rabble and between my new Oly E-M1 and perfectly functioning after 5 years Panasonic LX3, I think we will get by, thanks all the same, Mr Fuji.
     
  2. LargeFormat

    LargeFormat Well-Known Member

    Fuji obviously doesn't realise the extent of RovingMike's readership.
     
  3. Eye Robot

    Eye Robot Well-Known Member

    Why didn't you send it back under the Sale of Goods Act as being Not Fit for Purpose?
     
  4. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    Because over their 1 year warranty. I only used it sporadically before the Bleeding London caper and that is what has really shown up its faults.

    Must say I didn't decide against the X-T1 as my main camera replacement entirely out of pique, but had several goes with it in a couple of dealers. Each time it underexposed badly, very sensitive to lights and hot spots in the shop I think. The Oly E-M1 handled it perfectly every time and at 300% just looked better somehow. Not scientific, but enough for me in present frame of mind.
     
  5. Alex1994

    Alex1994 Well-Known Member

    The Sale of Goods Act overrides warranties, which is why warranties usually say 'this does not affect your statutory rights'!

    And it's the seller that's really responsible, not the manufacturer - unless you bought it direct from Fuji, of course.

    I don't know if this helps:-
    http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/sale-of-goods-act
     
  6. Alex1994

    Alex1994 Well-Known Member

    Just had a quick look at Fuji's UK site - they're selling a refurbished X10 for £179.99 - cheaper than a repair! :(
     
  7. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    Ah thanks. In fact it was a gift, so I don't know who supplied it, or I would certainly have a go at someone. But I suspect hard to prove it is not of merchantable quality, rather than just broke. Wish the reviewers told the truth, because there have been lots of hints that the X series were more about retro styling than actual performance, and the manual does hint that the focus might give you problems, but this is one the reviewers should have crucified.....if they dared.
     
  8. Alex1994

    Alex1994 Well-Known Member

    That's unfortunate, but I'm sure the Olympus will give you years of reliable service. :)
     
  9. Atavar

    Atavar Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your experiences Mike, Fuji is probably the last affordable manufacturer I have yet to buy from (see the string in the sig, not in date order) but from the sounds of it the customer care is non existent... No explanation and not even an basic breakdown of their charges parts-labour-testing?

    Either their not saying because it's a known persistent issue caused by design flaw or they flat out don't know and would replace its entire innards, as watch fixing became with quartz battery systems where they replace the entire £40 movement rather than repair the 10p cog causing the problem because they are just not made to be fixed... maybe, just maybe they haven't even bothered to look inside it to see what's wrong. :(

    They have definitely left a lot of questions having in the air, haven't they?

    Based on what you've been through I'm more likely to buy a roll of film from them before I buy a digital camera, and I buy my films from the Pound Shop so that is not massively likely.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
  10. PeteRob

    PeteRob Well-Known Member

    They started a cash back scheme. Email in my in-box yesterday (from LCE) offering 200 quid cash-back off the camera I bought 14 days ago. Grrrr!
     
  11. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    I think that is bang on. The thing has been a horror from the start (now I discover). They had a product recall to fix white blobs that appeared around lights and the fix was only partially successful. US sites are full of the AF problem, caused by a poor contrast system, with everyone asking eachother for a cure and Fuji not injecting anything into the debate. Think they moved to hybrid in later X cameras and the x10 manual hints you might get focus failures.
    When I originally wrote to them they took 3 weeks and didn't respond, so I called them. The guy wanted no info on settings etc at all, but said send it to us for repair. Clearly was not surprised at all by the occasional AE white outs or AF issues. They are offering cash discounts off other Fuji cameras, for people who decide not to pay the repairs, but not nearly enough.
    Press implied that the X-T1 was a departure from a range that was becoming rather dismissed as a joke, but I couldn't take the risk.
    In the latest call they said they had sent it back and also had written to me on 30th explaining what was wrong. Now 4th so I hope in a matter of weeks I will have the info. Watch this space....
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  12. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    I bought an x10 knowing that there was an orb problem (as did almost everyone else) the eventual replacement sensor was a perfect and permanent fix. Their customer service was second to none. (Camera was away less than a week)

    When the X20 came out I bought that as well, and like all their newer X cameras has the Hybrid Contrast Phase detection on sensor focussing Which is staggeringly fast and accurate. and they had added viewfinder information and rearrange the controls to an even better configuration. ( they had listened to the users.)

    When the X30 comes out I may well buy that as well ( depending on what it brings to the party.) I can not remember when I have been so happy with a camera. Except for my first new Rolleiflex, which was followed by several others.
     
  13. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    Interesting to know. And you had no focus problems with the X10?

    My problem is they have just abandoned the thing. The letter they said they sent on 30th with explanation has never arrived. Camera is back with a note saying sorry we can't help (because I won't fork out over £300 for a camera that is selling for considerably less). Their customer service has really been as atrocious as I have described. Impression is they did a big and efficient recall to sort the sensor issue and then swept the focus problem under the mat by bringing out the 20.
    Why I get the AE white outs is anyone's guess.
    BTW they claimed themselves that the orb issue could not be fully fixed by the sensor change. Found that online.
     
  14. miked

    miked Well-Known Member

    Just a thought: has AP or WDC ever featured an evaluation of the X10?
     
  15. Alex1994

    Alex1994 Well-Known Member

  16. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    Yes all evals are very favourable apart from the orbs thing (my number is later after they fixed that). The AF issues come up in sites like this where people go searching for solutions, but general opinion seems to be the choice of AF system was a mistake and people are just stuck with it. Fuji rushed out the 20 and went to ground.

    In truth, when it works it gives excellent results and it is a lovely unit. If you are working slowly and have time to check every frame, you can live with it. But if you are doing street grabs that are never going to be there again, it is going to let you down more often than you'd like, especially with zoom fully extended, or held vertically.

    No idea what caused the AE white outs, but aperture just started going to wide open in Programme mode, where it should have been around F8 / 11. That is not reported anywhere I have seen, but Fuji expressed no surprise.
     
  17. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    When the X10 came out the Hybrid Contrast/ Phase detection system had not been developed... even today excellent cameras like the Sony XR100 lll do not have that technology and have the slower contrast detection system. Which as always CAN fail in low contrast situations. It is still the most common system used on all compacts.

    Unfortunately for Fuji, people often compare that system with the hybrid one they developed for the X20 which is class leading. This is unfair because the X10 is as good as any other of its type, focus wise.

    I have never used program mode on either the X10 or X20 so I have never experienced your white out fault, so I have no idea if it is a finger problem, crossed settings or an actual faulty camera.

    I have never seen an orb on a new style sensor. Though in extreme circumstances all cameras of every make can produce orbs on extreme highlights, they come with the technology.

    At least Fuji do their own repairs, Sony put theirs out to contractors, who recently wanted to charge my daughter £213.00 to replace a cracked screen on a pocket sony.
     
  18. Roy5051

    Roy5051 Well-Known Member

    I once had an HS20 which went wrong. Returned it via retailer for repair, it came back three weeks later with the same fault. I will never buy another Fuji camera, they seem more style than substance.
     
  19. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    You are of course entitled to your opinion on any particular camera or even maker of cameras, to some extent that is something we all do. But as a assessment for others to go by, it is a vanishingly small sample.
    My vanishingly small counter to that, is that my experience and assessment is diametrically opposed to that opinion.

    I have hardly picked up any of my other cameras since owning the Fuji X10 quickly followed by the X20.

    I do not doubt you experience and your repair problem with your HS20.
    Modern consumer Digital cameras are typified by their exceptionally short life cycle.
    which I suggest is, in common with most domestic hitec products, rarely much more than twice to three times the interval of replacement models being launched.

    There was a time when Camera manufacturers kept sufficient spares to cover repairs for at least seven years after ceasing production of a given model. such repairs were done at an individual component level.

    Today all makes of Consumer cameras are rarely repaired, the cheaper ones are simply replaced. and the more expensive might have modular repairs done. When a model has been superseded, cameras are repaired or replaced during their guarantee period and while stocks exist. When such stock run dry no repairs can be done, but guarantee offers are made against a new purchase.

    All returned Fuji repairs are accompanied by a repair certificate that lists all work and or replacements carried out. If your HS20 was repaired by Fuji you will know the document and will be able to see what was done. If the shop had sent it to a repair company you would probably have no such document.

    Sony amongst others do not have an inhouse repair service for consumer cameras, but rely on external appointed repairers to take on such work.

    Most Professional and advanced cameras are treated somewhat differently by manufacturers, and some like canon treat professional users who own multiple high end kit, to a club style service, that includes loans and full rebuilds.


    In the main consumer cameras should be considered disposable at the end of their guarantee period, as paid for repairs will rarely be financially viable.

    Saying that... I still have a Minolta G600, Canon G3 and G6 a Canon 40D and a Fuji X10 and X20 all well out of guarantee periods, but all working perfectly.
    Used with care and with a modicum of luck even modern digital cameras have a reasonable life span.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
  20. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    Honestly that is just not so. I have been using the x10 and Lumix LX3 alternately with well over 1000 shots each over the last few months and I would guess so far the focus failures are about Fuji 50 Lumix 0.
    It is definitely worse in low contrast, but also really struggles zoomed out and upright. Not had that problem with my old Oly E510 either, but the old E500 was pretty hopeless focus-wise. Have to go back to late '80s to think of a similar AF issue.
    Re the white outs, maybe you can spot something I'm doing in the exif for this, but Fuji couldn't. It is quite typical. Camera set on AP this time and f9 in bright sun. See the shutter speed it set. Frame before was perfect and the one after.
     

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