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K20D report in AP 12/04/2008.

Discussion in 'Pentax Chat' started by Monobod, Apr 5, 2008.

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  1. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    David, given that many Nikons underexpose for exactly the same reason I can't see why it should be any more of a problem on a Pentax.

    I have no idea how long a reviewer will have a camera before writing their report but do remember that they have the same exposure to every camera they review so their impressions should be gained over similar periods of time. They also get to spend considerably more time with the various cameras than we do in the shop so their comparisons are more educated than ours.

    I don't think you are being unreasonable, I am however slightly miffed that so many people, judging from the number of responses to the two threads, think it appropriate to "have a go" at AP tests. In my experience they are about as impartial as you can get and pretty accurate.

    In truth, if you own a particular make of camera you are biased, whether you admit it or not, and thus defending "your" camera is an expression of prejudice. What I was trying to do was to remind everyone that 1, AP are trying to be impartial and 2, we (those who complain at least) aren't being impartial. If the K20D gets a higher score than the XYZ MK3 Z it probably deserves it. When it is scored lower there is a reason but it isn't personal.
  2. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    TBH, David, I think you probably were being unreasonable with this bit:

    Nikon wasn't even part of the comparison!
  3. OM_Man

    OM_Man Member

    Sorry for crossing the line. I thought people would see the funny side, I was wrong. And GeoffR has made the point I wanted to make without upsetting anyone - good to him.
    But I laugh at calling me a troll - surely a troll is someone who writes silly things about a magazine and it's staff on it's own website, not somebody complaining about it? But again I'm sorry, this Pentax stuff is not as bad as the terrible things written in the Olympus board.
  4. Monobod

    Monobod Phantom of the forum

    What I was refering to here was the remark about the quality of the rear screen compared to the D300, which for reasons I explained, I would have expected to be much better. I just thought it was an unfair comment considering the price difference.

    Yes, I was a bit harse and I apologise for getting carried away with myself. I normally read my posts through a few times before sending it, as I make quite a lot of typos! This also gives me the chance to bring some hindsight correction, but this time I messed up. Sorry for that. :( I will stand in the corner for half an hour! :D

    OM man, thank you for explaining your comments and if they were meant to be humourous, then so be it. I must say I didn't see the joke this time. You should perhaps use the smiley WINK a bit more! ;) :D
  5. Done_rundleCams

    Done_rundleCams AP Forum Ambassador to Canada

    Re: K20D report in AP 12/04/2008. Oh well, c'est la vie ....

    ... as I won't see it for (at least) a 5-6 weeks and that's only if I remember to look
    for the magasine and, FWIW, I wait for feedback from my customers and have yet
    to hear anything negative :rolleyes:


  6. Matt_Golowczynski

    Matt_Golowczynski Well-Known Member

    Without wishing to be rude, whether you agree with a review or not is one issue, but to suggest that it took the reviewer a day is a little insulting, no?
  7. Monobod

    Monobod Phantom of the forum

    No, I did not intend it to be. I know what it is like trying to get reports written up under pressure to a deadline. It isn't always easy. All I am saying is that reviewers, perhaps, do not have the added luxury of working with a camera for an extended period. I know if I had to review something, I would prefer to do so over an extended period, but perhaps that is just me and the way I work. I am not implying that Richard was not capable in any way. Perhaps you are reading something into my comment that wasn't there.

    I like the kind of report one sees from time to time, where a reviewer has been using the equipment for several months. Often this brings forth hidden niceties and weaknesses that might otherwise not be mentioned. Long term reports on motor cars is one example of this. I can see why this is not possible in a weekly publication with a camera that only has a short 'interest period' anyway.
  8. GnabGnab

    GnabGnab Member

    There seems to be a lot of quoting and counter-quoting going on here. Monobod (David) seems to be apologising for just stating his view as he wanted to do at a point in time. The fact that the so called mod’s keep posting little pedantic quotes is a little immature. Let the people have their say and stop intervening unless there is a violation of your board rules, its getting to be a bit dictatorial.
  9. Monobod

    Monobod Phantom of the forum

    Yes, thank you. I am beginning to feel a bit 'boiled in oil'. It would be a shame if I, or anyone else, were nudged away from expressing an opinion without being worried about being 'jumped on'. :(

    Dissagree with me, by all means, but please do not read into it, what was not intended. :D
  10. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    Nobody expects everyone to agree with every aspect of a test, but if you call into question the integrity of the reviewer (or the magazine) as has happened in this thread, you can rightly expect such a view to be challenged - that's not immature or dictatorial, is it? Certainly not as dictatorial as you trying to control what other forum members write...
  11. GnabGnab

    GnabGnab Member

    Dear Mod..please clarify

    "you trying to control what other forum members write"

    David should not have to say sorry for any of his comments or feelings. You and your ridiculous comment however prove my point with crystal clarity.
  12. huwevans

    huwevans Not Really Here

    Moderator: GnabGnab - wind your neck in NOW! Moderators on these forums are members too and are as entitled to participate in threads and express disagreement with others as any member is. When they are acting in the capacity of a moderator, as I now am, it will be clear.

    As far as I can see only two people have come close to breaching forum rules in this thread - first OM Man, and now you. Comments by everyone else, including the two mods who have participated in the discussion are entirely legitimate, and if you don't like that I'm afraid that's tough.

    If you think that anyone - whether a moderator or not - has breached the rules your proper course of action is to hit the 'notify' button and we will deal with it. It is not your place to start telling moderators how to moderate. And if you try to do so on the open forums you may be in breach of the rules and can expect to be dealt with accordingly.

    In particular, I suggest you learn some manners. You're a newcomer here, and you're trying to tell people who have been on the forums for years - in some cases virtually since day one - how to run the forums. At the very least that is the height of rudeness, not to say stupidity. Consider yourself on a warning.
  13. Monobod

    Monobod Phantom of the forum

    Thanks Huw, it is nice to be reassured that my comments have been 'in order'. I almost wish I hadn't started this in the first place, it seems to have upset several people, not my intention at all.

    I think everything that needs to be said has been regarding the K20D.
    May I request you to lock this off now before it catches fire! :D

    I think it has run its useful course. Thanks.
  14. huwevans

    huwevans Not Really Here

    I'd be happy enough to see it locked off too, so we'll do that.

    The general subject of the K20D review of course remains a prefectly legitimate one for discussion, but a new thread might help to put a line under what seemed to be some growing tension in this one - not particularly troublesome as yet, but I'd rather keep it that way.
  15. huwevans

    huwevans Not Really Here

    Unlocked again, as Richard needs to be able to reply to points raised. Provided everything has settled down I'll just leave it open.
  16. Monobod

    Monobod Phantom of the forum

    OK by me.
  17. Richard Sibley

    Richard Sibley AP Deputy Editor

    Thanks to everyone who has left feedback on the review.

    I would just like the chance to respond to a few issues that have been raised.

    Firstly apologies if I didn’t make the autofocus operation of the shutter release button clear enough. The slightest touch activates the autofocus – it is an extremely short amount of travel. For those not familiar with the light touch required, it may take a while to get used to. I mentioned this in the review and offered no criticism – though it may present a problem in cold weather when gloves are worn.

    As for the metering issues, I tested the camera in various situations, and I found that it had a tendancy to underexpose. To quote from my review:

    ‘While underexposure of the sky is beneficial, it does leave the rest of the image looking a little dark’.

    I reported what I found and the review was aimed at all users, not just those who shoot in raw format. Many people still shoot on JPEG and have no time or interest in editing images on a computer.

    As for the ‘clicky’ buttons, this is personal preference.

    “He also talks about the next model (K30D?) putting these things right. Is this wishful thinking or does he know more than he is letting on”

    Just to confirm, we know nothing of the Pentax camera that will replace the K20D, and given the cycle of camera releases I wouldn’t expect it for a while.

    I think Monobod summed it up when he said

    I had the camera for longer than the day or two that has been suggested and tested the camera in a wide variety of situations. This may not give you graphs and numbers, but we believe it is a more realistic test of a camera and better reflect what users will experience.

    I enjoyed using the Pentax K20D and think it produces fantastic quality images and has great build and handling. However, I don’t feel that the quality of the autofocus and metering matches the potential of the body and the 14.6 million pixel sensor. This is why I speculated about Pentax’s future plans. There are a number of manufactures who really could stir up the market place in the next couple of years and from what I have seen of the K20D, Pentax is one of them – I just don’t think the company is there quite yet.

    As a short aside, I had the ISO 6400 ‘watch mechanism’ image enlarged to 10x15 inches by my local lab. When I asked various people what ISO sensitivity they thought had been used, most people suggested either ISO 400 or 800 and were taken aback when I told them it was ISO 6400… and it wasn’t a Nikon camera! :D
  18. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    I don't see anything wrong with that. I think some on here would like only objective reporting but I don't see how you can do that unless you can leave your personality at home. AP would become very dull reading if you did.
  19. Crosstalk

    Crosstalk Well-Known Member

    One of the great things about not being an AP subscriber is the sense of anticipation one gets when you've read the arguments, before you sit down and read the review :)

    Having sat down and read through Richard's review twice, I have to say I think he did a pretty good job. I don't think David (monobod) needs be too worried about the review putting people off buying this camera. - Unless they haven't really though through what they want out of a DSLR anyway.

    The review pretty much answered the questions I had about IQ and how the new sensor/ADC/Firmware performed - a definite thumbs up.

    As for the negative issues he raised - low frame rate and lack of lenses suitable for sports photography, it's a fair criticism that just means that this camera isn't the best option for that market segment, but that's nothing you couldn't have worked out from a spec sheet. Hopefully the lens issue will be resolved over time given the new ownership - certainly an increase in the range of SDM lenses would help even out the focus speed comparisons which are so flawed in other reviews.

    Clearly LiveView was added as a late after-thought to this camera, but I'd be surprised if some of the current limitations weren't addressed over the next 18-24 months.

    As for the slight under exposure, personally I don't see that as a major issue - this is a camera for people that enjoy photography rather than an entry level point & shoot "green rectangle" DSLR. It's going to reward people that are prepared to put effort into their photographs both before and after they release the shutter. If you don't want to put that effort in, then buy a DSLR with scene modes!!! [Hopefully, that hasn't offended anyone :) Honestly, if you want a DSLR with scene modes, that's OK!]

    As a prospective K20D purchaser all Richard's review has done is confirm my decision. (I still want to see the WDC review too though!)
  20. Matt_Golowczynski

    Matt_Golowczynski Well-Known Member

    Tuesday for subscribers, otherwise a week this Friday for everyone else. Incidentally, the Sony Alpha A350 review appears in the issue too (Sorry, had to plug it here :D)
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