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I despair, well I would if I could be arsed.

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Brian, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. BikerMike

    BikerMike Well-Known Member

    What we used to have didn't work for the vast majority of pupils. I don't disagree with streaming - if by that we simply mean classes of different study load or pace.

    But it would be far more flexible and far easier for all concerned to have the different levels within the same school. That would really facilitate academic flexibility and would require nothing more than a class change.

    By comparison, changing schools is disruptive, bureaucratic, time-consuming and expensive - and pretty much irreversible.

    Regards, Mike
     
  2. thornrider

    thornrider In the Stop Bath

    That's a good idea in principle Mike. How would you prevent the disruptive elements who were just getting through the day rather dragging them down to a lowest common denominator?
     
  3. BikerMike

    BikerMike Well-Known Member

    The only real answer to that is to address the deprivation which causes such behaviour. Schools should not be held responsible for curing and coping with all the ills caused by the divided and divisive social context they find themselves in - though of course, they frequently get the blame for it.

    Regards, Mike
     
  4. thornrider

    thornrider In the Stop Bath


    But if the brighter pupils were in a separate school as before then there wouldn't be the same issue. It's the same as trying to pretend that all people from all walks of life can be mixed together.
     
  5. BikerMike

    BikerMike Well-Known Member

    Disruptive behaviour doesn't just miraculously disappear if you hide it away in a separate school.

    There is no easy answer to this, it is an ever-increasing problem for teachers and schools alike. When schools attempt to address the issues they are accused of being part of the nanny state (familiar?). When they don't have the resources, they are accused of failing.

    I repeat - the only real answer is to address the social issues which give rise to this. It is no coincidence that there is a direct correlation between deprivation and educational achievement.

    Of course, you can separate out an elite, but end up with even greater social division than we have now - and it is this social division which is causing the problem in the first place.

    Your suggestion is no solution.

    Well, we do all live together in the same world, so we need to learn to cope. What would you suggest, social apartheid?

    Regards, Mike
     
  6. Jim Moriarty

    Jim Moriarty Well-Known Member

    Eugenics? :(
     
  7. Dorset_Mike

    Dorset_Mike Grumpy Old Fart

    Cancel ASBOs, the yobs treat them as a badge of honour (as in honour among thieves - same with yobs), restart the cane or strap, if that don't work, bring back the birch. Bullies only respond to someone with a heavier hand than themselves. Detentions never work,

    National service of some description for repeated disruptive or antisocial behaviour, not necessarily armed forces, maybe hard/strenuous/heavy/ jobs with a strong dose of discipline, prison is too much like a holiday camp. Plain serviceable uniform at all times with no pretentions to any fads or fashions, plain food, no TV or radio, 10 pm lights out,no mobile phones/ipads/pods no alcohol or drugs minimum 2 years
     
  8. BikerMike

    BikerMike Well-Known Member

    :)

    I believe Norman Tebbit once advocated compulsory sterilisation for the working class - that is until he realised it would leave him and his ilk to do the work - so he changed his tune.

    Regards, Mike
     
  9. Done_rundleCams

    Done_rundleCams AP Forum Ambassador to Canada

    Well, you know what they say: "those that can, do. those that can't, teach" ;)

    Didn't know Mr. Bowie taught? :eek:

    ;)

    Jack
     
  10. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    How many people responding to this thread are, or have been, school teachers?

    It's more difficult than it looks. And the biggest obstacle at the comprehensive and secondary modern schools where I taught in the 1970s was not the system or the kids. It was the other teachers. On average I'd say that 10% of them were really good; 50% were competent; and 40% were authoritarian, poorly educated, firmly set in their (unattractive and antiquated) ways, and had no idea of what life was like outside school: they'd merely hopped from one side of the desk to the other in their early 20s. Think back to your own school days and you'll probably agree.

    How do you get better teachers? Pay 'em more, and interview 'em more critically. Works for public schools.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  11. gray1720

    gray1720 Well-Known Member

    Indeed. I'm in the midst of a long running career crisis and you'd be amazed by the number of people who think they're being really helpful by pulling "oh, you could be a teacher" out of the air, as if I'd never considered it. I have considered it, I've looked at myself, I've looked at the interactions I've had with school-age children, and I've looked at the fact that I wear my heart on my sleeve very often, and I've long since come to the conclusion that it would break my will before a day was out. I've loved training people as part of various jobs, it's not that I don't think much of teaching or anything like that, it's just that I know I couldn't do it. It's also reached the point where the next person who suggests it may find my boot up their a**e.

    Adrian

    P.S. Your Werra 3 is still going strong, Roger, if only the owner could do it justice!
     
  12. DaveS

    DaveS Well-Known Member

    I'm not a teacher, but as a senior science technician I'm in and out of teaching labs all day, and I know for a fact that I couldn't do it. Even though I'm in an independent school and the kids are fairly well behaved, I just couldn't cope with trying to din chemistry (My degree subject) into un-receptive teenagers.

    That doesn't mean I haven't thought about it, but I know that it's just not for me, (The mind-numbing paperwork's a killer for one), even though the pay and pension's a damn sight tbetter.
     
  13. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    The last couple of posts prompt me to suspect that the saying that "Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach" is popular chiefly with those who not only couldn't teach but are substantially unfamiliar with what teaching actually is. Then again, there's the rider, "Those who can't teach, teach the teachers."

    Who else remembers the Peter Principle, that people are promoted to the level of their own incompetence? This certainly seems to have been true in my (mercifully rare) encounters with those who pretended to teach teaching. Or it may simply have been that the sample of those I encountered was too small and I was unlucky.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  14. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    A teacher? No, couldn't do it. I do coach rugby to kids, which I find terrifically rewarding, but it's hard work and that's an hour and a half a week. As a result (and particularly as a result of the fact that I've been heavily involved in a pilot scheme to change the way we operate), I've learned a huge amount about the physical and mental development of children, how they learn and so on. And what it's taught me above all is how ill-informed so many people are on so many related subjects... ;)
     
  15. gray1720

    gray1720 Well-Known Member

    Pretty much my views in a nutshell - you are a brave man! I spent some time recently assisting the classroom technician and demonstrators in an undergraduate lab, and that was exhausting - and the cockups made by supposedly highly intelligent youngsters, dear gods... The attention to detail and organisational skills needed (and the patience - both with students and teaching staff) to do the job well have to be seen to be believed.

    Adrian
     
  16. Brian

    Brian Venerable Elder

    Called in and was amazed that this topic was still running. Mind you, can' t remember what the subject was and certainly can't be arsed to read my original post. ;)
     
  17. BigWill

    BigWill Gorgeous oversensitive Nikon-loving cream puff

    It's all going to get terribly confusing when the governments plans for the armed forces come into force because most of our teachers will then be "hero's" because they'll be the ones serving in Afghanistan in the TA..........well, them and dentists and estate agents and the butcher the baker and the candlestick maker! ;););)

    BigWill
     
  18. Brian

    Brian Venerable Elder

    And who pulled your bloody chain. Sweet Jesus, they will be digging Clive up next.
     
  19. BigWill

    BigWill Gorgeous oversensitive Nikon-loving cream puff

    Clive's been dug up more times than I've had hot dinners..............you can't keep a good vampire down you know! (It's just occurred to me that most of these "new" forum members won't have a bloody clue what we're wittering on about..........isn't that right "Slimey" ;) )

    BigWill
     
  20. Brian

    Brian Venerable Elder

    Psssssst let's keep it that way. Of course if they step out of line we could hold a seance and bring back SteveT and a cow called Ermintrude.;) Wonder if the Col is still beating up rednecks and the Lizard is still lounging. Haven't heard the Linnet yet this year, last time we spoke she was torn between gardening in the cemetery or designing stealth bombers at Farnborough.
     

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