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How tough is this?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by LesleySM, Feb 26, 2020.

  1. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    No, all those who do not hold the belief that they are as good as any photographer who ever lived.

    But let's invite those who want to sign on to that belief to say so below. It is a very attractive proposition if you can swallow it. Think of it, you never have to try to improve, because that is impossible. You never again need to look at something you did and say you could do better, because of course, by definition, it is as good as any shot ever taken.

    Am I winning any converts? Come on folks own up if deep down you believe there is no photographer in history who is better at it than you are.
     
  2. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Don't you have to define "better" before anyone can reply?
     
  3. dream_police

    dream_police Well-Known Member

    This is like being in The Twilight Zone.
     
    RogerMac and Catriona like this.
  4. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Yep!
     
  5. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    It's a question and answer paradox

    RM states the answer.

    Andrew asks the question
     
  6. dream_police

    dream_police Well-Known Member

    Yes. Unfortunately it’s like playground behaviour. No one will ever win.
    We’ve been here so many times. I find it quite frustrating that Andrew can’t see or appreciate that he is in the minority of probably one. It is futile even trying to argue against him.
     
    DaveM399 likes this.
  7. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    It's defence by means of attack. Also, if someone seems to have the definitive answer, is it not our reaction to question it? The older I get, the less I have the answer, but the more I have the questions.
     
    John Farrell likes this.
  8. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    Nihilist. Pragmatist. Careful, now someone might introduce an Existentialist and a Rational Empiricist.
    Then where would we be.
     
    Catriona likes this.
  9. dream_police

    dream_police Well-Known Member

    If no one is a better photographer than any other, does the same apply to a potter, a chef, a car mechanic or whatever. There seems to be a struggle defining good, or the need or desire to improve. Is that unique to photography? If so why? Or is it across the board and we are all equal at what we do?

    My suspicion though is that he does it on purpose to provoke and doesn’t actually believe it himself.
     
    Catriona likes this.
  10. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    Well, as I wandered off to get ready to go out, I did think of Stravinsky, and L S Lowry, and Barbara Hepworth and the reactions at first to their works.
    As for good? I think that is defined by those who either have made it to the top - or those who feel they have the status to critique them.

    A safer word for us mere mortals is Like. Or, I know what I like and I know what leaves me cold. The first might elicit a good or very good from me - the latter wouldn't rate any description, I'd just pass it by.
     
    Andrew Flannigan likes this.
  11. spinno

    spinno Well-Known Member

    Today I am disagreeing with both sides of the argument (whatever it is) but tomorrow I will agree with both sides of the argument.
    This is the way in which I may well be on the right side at some time during my life, however my chickens aren't being counted yet.
     
    DaveM399 and Andrew Flannigan like this.
  12. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    We can define different levels of skill where objective criteria can be defined. So we can define the skill level of a mechanic by how many jobs she can perform or how many vehicles he has knowledge of. We can define the skill level of a doctor by how many diseases he can diagnose or how many types of operation she can perform.

    We can even define the skill level of a draughtsman or painter by how accurately they can record a scene in front of them; or a sculptor by how well he can shape the stone to mimic another object.

    We cannot define the skill level of any photographer in this way. We can only state our liking or otherwise for the image they have chosen to record because (especially since the introduction of digital recording) all the technical aspects are too simple to be described as a skill set. This argument keeps coming up because some people want to pretend that the labels of the RPS and so on represent some objective assessment when the assessment of any image as an image is entirely subjective.

    This extends to the examples of artists I gave above. While we can quantify the skill of a draughtsman, painter or sculptor in a particular technique, any evaluation of the images they provide is still entirely subjective.

    So now that I've restated my position you can disagree with what I actually believe and not what some people claim I believe.
     
  13. DaveM399

    DaveM399 Well-Known Member

    Let's hope they're not being chlorinated either!
     
    dream_police and spinno like this.
  14. spinno

    spinno Well-Known Member

    I
    that'll probably go swimmingly....
     
  15. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    ...at least they won't crash and burn.
     
  16. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    On reflection, is it not the case that Art is considered Good, if someone pays a lot of money for it? I mean, how can you say it is crap if someone pays a million to own it?
    Oh cynic me.
     
    Andrew Flannigan likes this.
  17. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Mike, are you suggesting that I should be awake when I post?
    No you didn't mention cost but there is a basic premium on buying a Full Frame camera over the equivalent cropped sensor model from the same manufacturer. As a, bad, example a D5 is/was around £6,000 and a D500 is around £1800, Used a D5 sells for around £4,000 and a D500 for around £1,000. For the vast majority of people the D500 is all they need, there also many more of them around.
     
  18. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    Waiting for a punchline?
     
  19. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    So, What Is Art?
    Whatever art is, it is inherent to human existence. Dostoevsky wrote: ‘Art is as much a need for humanity as eating and drinking. The need for beauty and for creations that embody it is inseparable from humanity and without it man perhaps might not want to live on earth. Man thirsts for beauty, finds and accepts beauty without any conditions but just as it is, simply because it is beauty; and he bows down before it with reverence without asking what use it is and what one can buy with it’.

    For Nietzsche, ‘art is essentially the affirmation, the blessing, and the deification of existence’. Art is a means of coping with the world we live in, our own existence and making sense of it all.

    American novelist Saul Bellow wrote that ‘art has something to do with the achievement of stillness in the midst of chaos’.

    On the other hand, for Oscar Wilde, ‘art is the most intense mode of individualism that the world has known’.

    Art is also an attempt at immortality, or as French novelist Andre Malraux wrote, ‘art is a revolt, a protest against extinction’.

    Art is all those things and so many others. Transcending a solipsistic view of life, art has the power to relate to the world and each other with more integrity, more curiosity, more wholeheartedness. And by doing so, it makes our lives infinitely rich.

    https://www.widewalls.ch/what-is-art/
     
  20. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    I expected one of our philosophical members to supply one.
    Catriona is now quoting Nietzche.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
    Catriona likes this.

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