Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Zou, Jun 23, 2016.
Or give a resigned shrug and declare independence...
All right for some, mutter, mutter, mutter...
Very true... but do forgive us a little 'dark humour' amidst the gloom.
Expressed so those are the emotions of desperation and I agree. What is unfolding is just appalling.
It would be foolish to press the Article 50 button too soon, a lot of wind seems to be blowing our way in Brussels. Juncker and his arrogant diktats might not last long: https://euobserver.com/institutional/134177
BTW Tory party members will make the final PM choice so zero chance of a non-Brexiter getting it. Will be a slimy worm or complete nonentity, just because they voted Leave.
Yet Gove and Boris wanted Cameron, the Remain PM, to stay and sort it out, whatever the referendum result. To my mind, neither of the main parties seem to have much in the way of suitable candidates waiting in the wings.
So Farage has ducked and run too. No-one wanting to be around when the fallout lands.
There's a lot of horsetrading going on, but with 2/3 of Tory voters voting leave, looks like it can't be the only one with any stature, May.
Too little, too late to keep Britain in.
Italy is having a little difficulty with its banks and is at odds with the central bank over how to proceed.
Greece still has its problems.
Internal borders have gone up all over the Eastern part of the union.
There are far right parties far nastier than UKIP gaining support all over Europe.
The EU is beginning to unravel.
Its time to start again with different ground rules from the start.
Yes they have to learn that the bigger you get, the more flexibility you have to build in, or you bust the whole thing. Putting an old style autocrat like Juncker in was always going to lead to grief.
I hope that you are wrong. May would have a unifying influence. The PM will also have more to do than manage Brexit. I have little doubt that she would appoint a strong pro Brexit minister to oversee that process. My only concern about May is that she will not move fast enough. We, that is UK and the EU, both need to get rid of most of the uncertainty.
All that is needed is to agree to some civilised interim measures such as trade under WTO rules, protection of rights of foreign citizens resident in each others' countries and a system of allowing workers who have worked in other countries regularly on a seasonal basis to continue to do so. Where we have made EU law part of our own law we just change responsibility for it. A lot of that law is actually very sensible and there is no hurry to change it. It will take years to sort out the detail. For now demonstrate good will.
Not Quite. Corbyn is hanging in there wonderfully.
I'm beginning to think that the way forward for the EU is what I think of as the "caterpillar option".
When a caterpillar pupates into a butterfly or moth all its organs break down into a soup then are rebuilt from scratch almost.
Put a basic framework in place to hold the EU together and dissolve all the other institutions. Starting from scratch work out what is needed for a 20+ state organisation, probably an elected parliament with real authority, a council of experts to advise the parliament, and a civil service to implement those decisions.
You may have equally valid opinions of course.
It's just a crying shame we won't be in a position to give any input but will just have to put up with whatever is decided.
Even if the unlikely happened, and parliament met and voted down the referendum result, saying to the other 27, "we're staying after all" it wouldn't do any good. I think we've become so toxic to the others that they (Rightfully) will want us out of the way ASAP.
As I said near the start of the referendum thread, I'm surprised we haven't been kicked out before this given all the playground antics of successive governments.
Or the Phoenix...
Well I was hoping it would be a little less drastic than burning the house down.
Just souping the internal organs
Sounds like re-inventing what they have already. They are elected and they have more experts than you can shake a stick at. And their processes are usually more open than ours, with more layers of consultation. Have you ever worked with them?
Have I ever worked with them? No, I was just floating an idea, which is why I said others could have equally valid opinions.
What's your idea (Genuine question)?
I have worked with, against, alongside them on many issues as an industry representative for about 15 years. I don't see a lot wrong with the way they work, but the more countries there are with more opinions, the more it will seem like we have less and less individual say. Which is of course true. Generally I have found them a bit less susceptible to vociferous minorities and one-issue wonders (NGOs etc) than our own government, so what they do usually makes sense.
BUT they have expanded Europe without taking into account the complexity of more opinions, habits, prejudices that that inevitably brings and the proportionate disenfranchisement of the main members. It is not entirely unlike how the rigidity of the Soviet Union went under. That was very painful too for most of the members, who's economies took a very long time to recover.
I think we should not rush. We have put something quite dramatic on the table and lose relatively little by letting it lie there. If the pound slides further, our exports will be helped short term (Mr Carney might disagree). The longer our resolution lies there, the more time there is for it to empower the countries and groups that want reform in Europe and their pressure can bring change. Juncker has to go of course and then the outlook could be quite different.
We should keep demanding to negotiate before Article 50 and I think they will soften. If we push too hard too quickly they can only dig their heels in in panic. Let them get used to it. Then they might come up with a new set of rules independently and eventually we hold another referendum on the terms.
We should not provoke a general election, because comparison of referendum results with GE borders shows Brexit would win by about 180 seats. Let time do its work. But looks like the next PM will be a rabid Brexiter, so little chance of that.
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