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DSLR diehards.

Discussion in 'AP Magazine Feedback & Suggestions' started by Learning, Sep 8, 2021.

  1. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    Well done. I bought a D800. It is a brilliant camera. My purchase was a very expensive mistake. As brilliant as it is it is not what I really wanted.
    For me D500 was much better. The D850 would have been OK as well; I should have waited for it.
  2. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    I lusted after a iiig after the M series came out. The iii series are so small yet very elegant and functional.
    zx9r and steveandthedogs like this.
  3. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Wow, new turntable and speakers! My turntable dates from the late '70s and my speakers from the mid '80s.
  4. Chester AP

    Chester AP Well-Known Member

    I don't usually replace things that I've been happy with, unless have no choice.

    Last year I had to replace my British made amp and CD player that I purchased in 1994 - the amp has persistent dry joints on the circuit board and the Sony disc mechanism in the CD player fell apart, so the amp was beyond economic repair and CD player needed parts that have not been made for over 20 years. Only when trying to get it repaired did I find out that the amp, whilst well reviewed and sounding great, had its line-level pre-amp board placed above the output power transistors so that it was slowly baked and cooled over 26 years. My Pentax MX film SLR was purchased new in 1980 and used until 2007 when I purchased my first DSLR (after I couldn't buy Kodachrome anymore) . I'm now on my second DSLR, which may be the last camera I buy.
  5. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    My problem with the term DSLR diehards is that it implies some degree of resistance to the inevitable, a case of “it is going to happen so get it over with”. The ultimate demise of the SLR, will probably come about because the supply of batteries will dry up. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Nikon D1X but it won’t work without batteries, try buying a Nikon EN4 battery though and it becomes obvious why there are so few D1 bodies around. The EN-EL4 is still around and the EN-EL18 will continue in the Z9 so D4, D5 and D6 users will be OK for a while yet.

    Beyond that, SLR or Mirrorless is merely a choice of which tool is most suitable for the job at hand. Usually the tool one has is preferable to one that has to be purchased specifically so, anyone who has a DSLR is likely to use it in preference to buying a Mirrorless.

    I note that those photographers featured are all professionals, ask the same question of a range of amateurs and the answers will be different. There is no inevitability about the demise of the DSLR in amateur hands, except as stated above, and the batteries for the enthusiast and entry level cameras remain available from many sources.

    Of course cameras do wear out but I have taken 36,000 images across two bodies since buying my first D4 in 2018. At that rate, and assuming a shutter life of 400,000 actuations, they have around 40 years before they are worn out. The ultimate demise of the DSLR is a long way off for us amateurs.
    zx9r likes this.
  6. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Reminds me of something I read in one of the American photography magazines, probably in the early 1970s.

    The subject of an interview was quoted as saying "The only difference between me and the average amateur is that I get paid to enjoy myself {by taking pictures.}"
  7. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    There is a considerable difference in attitude and the way they approach their photography between a professional and an amateur.
    Though the quality of the individual images they produce may be largely indistinguishable.
    Such differences as might be noticed are largely to do with Saleability and more often in the way the subject is covered.

    Their choice of equipment can be much the same. but is more need led, in the case of a professional.
    Larger professional photographic concerns, will amortise their capital equipment, and have a regular replacement plan that is largely based on tax efficiency, and service life.
  8. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    I think this is where we get into the old chestnut about who is a professional. Personally, I never called myself a professional photographer. My business cards simply read: "press, wedding and commercial photography".

    Generally speaking, I considered myself an amateur (in the true sense of the word) who often got paid for practicing my hobby. Mind you, I was careful not to place any such confusion in the mind of the Inland Revenue Inspector. ;)
  9. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    There in lies the driver for the switch to mirrorless cameras. There is no such driver for the amateur who is free to use whatever equipment he/she chooses.
  10. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    I don't think that's really the case on a large scale at all. I don't know all that many large pro concerns - not sure there really ARE that many these days - but the 2 I do know are still using Canon and Nikon DSLRs for the most part, with the odd mirrorless in the mix. Partly because neither Canon nor Nikon have had pro mirrorless cameras of that type, but also because the current cameras haven't been due for replacement...

    From what I've seen, there have been two main drivers for people actively choosing to change to mirrorless, amateur or pro - additional functionality - in my case silent shutter, which means I can get shots I couldn't otherwise - and smaller size. Even many pros are happy about saving a few hundred grammes of camera body in many cases, and even more if they've moved to a system that's smaller overall. I can think of several former members here who have turned pro over the last 12 years or so, as well as others I know - every single one of them has added mirrorless cameras for one, other or both of those reasons, even though most retain DSLRs as well. The other factors that have driven mirrorless are of course (a) lack of many alternatives in the DSLR world apart from Canon, Nikon and Pentax, and (b) the excitement of the new. We can all be as snotty as we like about that last one, but it's still a major factor for many.
  11. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    If you get paid for your photography you are offering a professional service.
    However it is more realistic to consider a professional photographer one who supports his family and puts food on the table though his photographic endeavours. Neither gives any reference to his ability or competence, compared to an Amateur.

    These days I charge for nothing, and give images away for free. I am an Amateur, albeit an ex-Professional industrial and commercial photographer.
    AdrianSadlier and zx9r like this.
  12. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    When I moved into part time photography and full time employment, my income from photography sometimes exceeded my income from the day job! No, I don't understand it either... :confused:
  13. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    My point, poorly articulated, is that there is no compelling driver for an amateur to “go mirrorless”, there might be one for a professional. For me the drive isn’t to change but to get the best from what I have. Moving to a mirrorless system, without compromising on lenses or bodies, would come to £10,000 or there abouts. Simply it doesn’t make sense, I am not a diehard, I am a realist who sees no advantage in spending a large sum of money just to get rid of some mirrors.
  14. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    But I'm really not sure your point is correct. There are exactly the same drivers for amateurs as pros, less the idea of payback. Lots of amateurs have bought mirrorless cameras for their unique features, or for less weight and bulk, or because their manufacturer of choice doesn't make DSLRs any more and they want/need a new camera, or simply to try something new. And your main reason for not changing - it's bloody expensive - actually applies just as much to most pros as it does to amateurs. It's certainly why I'm in no hurry to replace my remaining DSLRs.
    In fact most pros are far less likely to change unless there's a compelling reason - equipment has to pay for itself, and isn't a discretionary purchase for a hobby. And most amateurs are probably looking at far cheaper mirrorless options than you - or the average pro.
  15. PeteRob

    PeteRob Well-Known Member

    The "driver" is that replacement cameras are (or shortly will be) mirrorless. That it is expensive is a factor to consider but no-one is forcing anybody to dump good kit and buy new kit. Some will so do because that is their way but I'd think the majority weigh up need against cost and will move when it is justified. I paid something like £3,600 for a Canon 1Div body back in 2012 because I judged it was "worth it" for the AF but that camera hasn't yet earned its retirement yet. I daren't add up what my 'L' lenses would cost to replace (though I ought to because they are probably under-insured) but they'll work with adaptors when I get around to getting an R5 or whatever. I'm not a "diehard", in that I refuse to conscience swapping to mirrorless. I've dabbled (2 Fujii bodies and lenses + a compact) and have no real complaints other than focus hesitance and not quite realistic ELV. The move will come, eventually, as equipment wears out and needs replacing.
  16. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    I simply think that a professional is more likely to wear out or damaged equipment and they can possibly offset some, or all, of the cost against tax. However I will concede that cost is indeed a factor for everyone. I must therefore assume that those who have switched expect to recover the cost in increased earnings, something I won’t be doing.
  17. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    In the normal way a professional will replace working equipment when it has amortised and no longer has a book value, this is helped by taking advantage of all tax regulations. However such equipment alway has a residual value. And probably is till of some use. So it may be sold or re amortised for further period.
    In the case of a DSLR it's residual selling value is probably far lower than might have been expected,. So holding it for a longer period is most likely justified, so as to cover the normally longer write down time of associated lenses.

    As tools of the trade, kit replacement is part of the normal overhead of running a photographic business. And if it can not do it on a continuing basis it would indicate that is is not running at a profit.
  18. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    If you are replacing kit regularly anyway you have a driver for a switch to mirrorless and you may have sufficient kit to allow the use of both SLR and mirrorless during a decision making/transition period. On the other hand, if kit replacement happens only because of a desire for something new decisions are likely to be based around budget and availability.

    The tone of Angela’s article, and others, suggests that some people in the photographic press, if not in the wider industry, want to see a swift end to the SLR’s dominance in the professional market. What I don’t understand is why that should be the case. Is the DSLR doing any harm to photography or to the income of professional photographers? We’re there two different and incompatible infrastructures required to allow both to continue, as was the case with digital and analogue TV, the zeal of these journalists might be understandable but once a photographer has the hardware the infrastructure required is the same. Will something magical happen when the last DSLR is retired?

    Please, DSLRs and mirrorless cameras are tools to do a job. Switching from a mains powered drill to a cordless one makes not the slightest difference to the resulting hole, though it might make a difference to the location in which it can be drilled. Likewise, for a competent photographer, switching from DSLR to mirrorless will make no difference to the resulting image. Yes there are technical advantages, such as wider maximum aperture possibilities, but in practical terms for most of us that is irrelevant. In any case the continuing existence of DSLRs isn’t preventing the design and/or manufacture of faster lenses. If camera manufacturers are finding the production of SLRs is interfering with mirrorless production they can simply stop producing SLRs, they don’t need the photographic press to extol the virtues of mirrorless for that.

    I have access to a Portable Appliance Tester, at the press of a button it will check the electrical safety of a piece of equipment but I still know how to perform the tests from scratch with individual test equipment. Indeed the all singing machine tends to fail low power devices because the internal resistance is too high to show continuity between live and neutral. Knowing how and when to use tools within their limitations is the mark of a professional. We don’t discard tools when something new comes along but use old and new together matching them to the task at hand.
    zx9r likes this.
  19. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    I've discussed this with Ange and various others in the past, and their answer has been that the think that people who haven't adopted mirrorless are missing out on the benefits of the new technology. I've pointed out that (a) not all of them are necessarily advantages to everyone (some have real problems with EVFs, for example), (b) not all the perceived advantages carry any weight with all users, and (c) not everyone, pro or amateur, can afford/justify getting rid of perfectly functional gear simply to get the latest, especially if it means replacing lenses etc.
    To an extent, reviewers live in a bubble where all they see is the latest and greatest, and have just as much difficulty relating their experience to that of pros, enthusiasts or beginners as anybody else does of understanding other people's actual needs and requirements.
    EightBitTony and zx9r like this.
  20. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    I suspect that the manufacturing industry does want the change over to be as swift as possible. from a manufacturing point of view the less duplication of effort and inventory the better.
    This is tempered by the need to reduce redundant inventory and switch manufacturing capacity, as quickly and in as profitable way as possible.

    Retail businesses on the other hand want the change to be as slow as possible so as not to be caught with new but unsaleable dead stock. As they were with the rapid change over to Digital. To a large extent, and from now on they will be keeping new DSLR inventory to very low levels. Their orders from Manufacturers and from importers will already be at extremely low levels. What the do take on will be a "fire sale" prices.

    The second hand market in DSLRs will flourish for some time, as will the sale of used lenses. these are already circulating in an ever decreasing market place and prices will fall to a comparatively low level for the more high volume popular items. But will most likely rise for the rarer "Collectors" items.

    For a time, Amateurs will be in a position to wallow in a comparative glut of high end new and second hand DSLR kit of all kinds. But need to bear in mind that at some point, they will only have incompatible Mirrorless system available as new kit. At which point they will find it increasingly difficult to find repairers with spares to keep their DSLR kit on the road. many lenses and bodies will become paperweights.

    By that Time Professionals will already have changed over, through the normal course of their scheduled kit replacement plans.

    I suspect some companies, especially Pentax, to quit the market altogether, as they have no mirrorless offerings at all, and their DSLR sales are already minute. They are unlikely to survive the changeover period through to when the supply of other makes of DSLRs have dried up. and possibly a new small market for novel DSLRs becomes viable. I would suggest that they are already the "walking dead" working through an exit strategy.

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