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Am I right here?

Discussion in 'Everything Film' started by robbybobby, May 22, 2003.

  1. robbybobby

    robbybobby Well-Known Member

    But if I buy 5L of ID11, and 500ml of fx, and just rinse throughly instead of stop bath and use the ID11 1:1, will I be averaging about 40p to develop a 135mm roll of film?(my dev. tank is 290ml for 35mm).
    This seems rather cheap! Rather Good!;-)
    I'm a total beginner in the darkroom, and perhaps may be dev my own films next week, but I'm still doing exams so it may have to wait until June 10.(end of exams).
    All help appreciated,

    Rob IRIPN

    If something's not worth doing, it's worth forgetting about.
     
  2. huwevans

    huwevans Not Really Here

    A couple of points: 500ml of fixer won't cope with all the rolls of film you can dev with 5l of ID-11 - you'll likely need more. Secondly, while buying the 5l packs of ID-11 sounds like a good money saver the pack is not divided internally - once you open it the chemicals will be exposed to the atmosphere. I'm not sure how well they keep once opened but unmixed, and you would also need a very accurate balance to measure out the part A, because it is used in very small quantities. If you mix and store the whole lot then you will only have a few weeks at most to use it in before oxidation depletes it.

    Finally, I'm not sure what the point of not using a stop bath is - stop bath is cheap (it's only acetic acid, after all) and it will extend the working life of the fixer (which isn't cheap). You can use just water as a stop, but why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar?

    Huw Evans.
    www.huwevans.freeuk.com
     
  3. robbybobby

    robbybobby Well-Known Member

    Ah. How long does fixer last? i.e., how many litres of ID11 1:1 will it work with(if you see what I mean). Also, is stop bath reuseable? And where is it bought? I looked on Jessops and I didn't see it.

    Rob IRIPN

    If something's not worth doing, it's worth forgetting about.
     
  4. Simon E.

    Simon E. Well-Known Member

    Stop bath is re-used, at a high dilution and lasts for ages. It has an obvious colour indicator, usually changing from yellow to purple when exhausted. I bought some of Jessops' own. Buy a small bottle, or it will be years before you use it all.

    IIRC fixer capacity varies with the film - fast films exhaust it more quickly and take longer to fix. Use a piece of the same film (the leader bit you cut off perhaps) in a cup or yoghurt pot containing fixer alongside the film in the tank. The rule of thumb is to fix for twice the clearing time, so if it takes 1min for your film to go completely clear then leave the fixer in the tank for 2mins. Agitate the tank gently (either by inversion or using a stirrer) every so often.

    When the clearing time is double that of fresh fixer I'd say it's pretty well exhausted. When your film doesn't clear completely (check the rebates, they are the bits that suffer most) all you have to do is fix it again in a fresh solution.

    In a Paterson 35mm tank you need 300ml of each chemical, for a 2-reel tank with 2 35mm films you should use 600ml. Can't remember the figures for 120, but they are on the bottom of the tank.

    Wash all things that come into contact with fixer thoroughly (especially the cup!). It is toxic, but will also prevent development of any film or print it contacts before the developer.

    Anybody who wants a dilution table for various volumes can get one here:
    http://www.geocities.com/ruralwales/dilute.html

    Simon.
     
  5. robbybobby

    robbybobby Well-Known Member

    Also, drying marks I've heard can be a problem. I live in a hard-water area and could possibly have problems, so could these problems be eliminated by rinsing the film in distilled water before drying it?

    Rob IRIPN

    If something's not worth doing, it's worth forgetting about.
     
  6. huwevans

    huwevans Not Really Here

    I also live in a hard water area and don't have any significant problems with drying marks. Use a wetting agent sparingly in a final wash and it will help to shed the water. You can also use distilled water or just filtered water in the same final rinse and that will help to eliminate the problem.

    Huw Evans.
    www.huwevans.freeuk.com
     
  7. robbybobby

    robbybobby Well-Known Member

    I've read that you're supposed to rinse film contstantly for about 20mins - is this correct? Only this would use up gallons of water. Also, my dev. tank doesn't have a hole in the bottom.

    Rob IRIPN

    If something's not worth doing, it's worth forgetting about.
     
  8. huwevans

    huwevans Not Really Here

    Ten minutes should be plenty - yes it does use a lot of water, but it's probably less than you would use just having a shower, so it's not a huge proportion of typical household usage in general. Washing prints takes a lot more. Your tank isn't supposed to have a hole in the bottom - the wash water overflows out of the top, having been force-fed down the central column into the bottom of the tank. That way you get a good circulation and even washing of the whole film.

    Huw Evans.
    www.huwevans.freeuk.com
     
  9. robbybobby

    robbybobby Well-Known Member

    What rate does the water need to be fed though at? Also, how 'dirty' is the water that comes out? Can it be used for anything?(it still seems wasteful, especially if doing, say, half a dozen films, which is what I have in mind first time since I've got that many rolls ready). Can the same water be used to rinse the next film?

    Rob IRIPN

    If something's not worth doing, it's worth forgetting about.
     
  10. huwevans

    huwevans Not Really Here

    What rate does the water need to be fed though at?

    I can't give you a specific flow rate, but in terms of normal domestic tap pressure 'brisk, but not full on' probably about covers it. You cannot reuse the water because it now contains hypo, and you need clean water to remove hypo from each film. If you are doing several rolls at a time then the best thing to do is buy a bigger tank.

    Huw Evans.
    www.huwevans.freeuk.com
     
  11. robbybobby

    robbybobby Well-Known Member

    Well, I would if I had the money - but I don't right now. I've got £15 to get all the chemicals needed to process this film from that.

    Rob IRIPN

    If something's not worth doing, it's worth forgetting about.
     
  12. huwevans

    huwevans Not Really Here

    Well you could try just buying a couple of 1l packs of ID-11 and half a litre of Rapid Fixer. Under those circumstances I can see why you might want to skip the stop bath - you could always use a dilute white vinegar as a substitute, or just water as mentioned earlier.

    You might even fancy experimenting with some of the 'alternative' developers available for practically nothing. Very strong coffee, for example, will develop film - I can't say the results I have seen are terribly impressive, but on the other hand there is another even cheaper one which I have often meant to try, and which by good report produces beautifully rich well-toned and fine grained negatives, although it needs a very long development time - maybe a hour or two.

    I won't spell out what it is, but suffice it to say that I would imagine BigWill produces copious quantities of it every Friday night, aided by the consumption of much beer. ;-)

    Huw Evans.
    www.huwevans.freeuk.com
     
  13. Simon E.

    Simon E. Well-Known Member

    You don't need to wash a film for 20 mins. Why not use Ilford's washing procedure?

    Fill the tank with water at the same temperature as your dev/stop/fix.
    Invert 5 times. Drain.

    Repeat the above with 10, 20, 40 inversions.

    Then add a few drops of Rinse Aid or Ilfotol to a final tankfull (don't invert this one - you'll have soapy bubbles everywhere!). Some cheapskates use washing-up liquid, but I'd rather play safe. My last £2 250ml bottle of Ilfotol lasted about 5 years.

    A tip I read here to avoid drying marks: hang the film up, and *very* carefully run a paper tissue down the shiny side of the wet film, applying just enough pressure to touch the film, soaking up the water droplets.

    Before that, to remove excess water I shake the spiral vigorously while the film is still loaded.

    Some useful info in PDF format on Ilford's website, there's even one there called "process your first film":
    http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/bw.html

    Simon.
     
  14. Simon E.

    Simon E. Well-Known Member

    ID-11 needs mixing up from powder, which is a pain. Why not try a small bottle of liquid dev? Paterson Aculux is a good all-rounder, they claim the same for FX-50, and FX39 works well with T-grain films like Delta and Tmax. I like Jessop Econotol 2 with Tmax400, though you need to downrate it by at least 1/2 stop.

    Ilfosol-S works well with FP4. Ilford DD-X is now promoted as an all-round dev, though it's based on their speed-increasing formula Microphen, and unfortunately isn't very cheap. What about Ilford LC29? This can be used highly diluted, so will last a good while.

    To keep it cheap use Jessops' own Fixer and Stop Bath. I wouldn't really recommend a Universal film & print developer if you're fussy, though they work OK.

    Lots of alternatives, but if you like ID-11 go ahead. Remember you'll need a suitable container to store it. I use 1L accordian bottles, which you can compress down so hardly any air is left to oxidise the developer.

    Simon.
     
  15. robbybobby

    robbybobby Well-Known Member

    Thanks Simon. That's useful.
    Will I be able to buy developer, stop, fix and wetting agent for £15?

    Rob IRIPN

    If something's not worth doing, it's worth forgetting about.
     
  16. robbybobby

    robbybobby Well-Known Member

    Well, I've been reccomended ID11, but I'll have a look around.
    I'll be developing a mix of HP5, FP4 and Tmax 400. Is there a developer ideal for those three? I thought ID11 because it is supposed to be similair to D-76, the developer used for Tmax films.

    Rob IRIPN

    If something's not worth doing, it's worth forgetting about.
     
  17. Simon E.

    Simon E. Well-Known Member

    ID-11 and D76 are, to all intents and purposes, identical. They are cited as the standard or reference developer, which has a good compromise of qualities.

    However, this plus the pain of mixing powders (which don't always mix properly), leads me to suggest a liquid dev for your initial exploits. Aculux was very similar to these two in its qualities, so I'd expect the Aculux 2 dev to work similarly. All the devs I suggested would produce excellent results with your chosen films. If using Paterson you might find their recommended times a little on the short side.

    Dev should be £3-5, stop & fix similar prices.

    If you buy a liquid dev you could decant it into smaller bottles to help it keep. Or make two pinholes in the foil lid and squirt the dev out into the measure before squeezing the bottle to expel excess air as you refit the cap. The second hole is to let the air in while you're pouring the dev out.

    Rinse all items that contact the chemicals thoroughly.

    Simon.
     
  18. nicxx

    nicxx Well-Known Member

    Y'know I always used to do that, then a "proper photographer" (!) told me it needed to rinse for at least 20 minutes.

    these days I just leave the first one washing while I dev the second tank, then I leave the second one washing while I dry the first and put my gea away.

    S'pose the sane thing would be to get a BIGGER DEV TANK and do 'em all at once...![​IMG]



    <IMG SRC=http://www.sugarlumpstudio.co.uk/images/figures/mr_ermin.gif>
    <font color=purple>ermx</font color=purple>
     
  19. Wilko

    Wilko Well-Known Member

    I'm one of those cheapskates that uses washing up liquid as a wetting agent. Maybe when I buy my next batch of chemicals I'll lash out on a bottle of wetting agent.
    I wash under continuous running water for 10 minutes - seems to work.

    Graham FRIPN
     
  20. Wilko

    Wilko Well-Known Member

    TMax works well with all of these films (best with Delta), and it's concentrated liquid. However it isn't cheap. A 1 litre bottle costs about £13.
    This should do 16 films at 1/4 concentration in a 290ml tank, so works out at about 81 pence a film. I think it lasts about a year once you've broken the seal on the bottle.
    I wouldn't skip the stop bath. It's cheap and lasts for ages.

    Graham FRIPN
     

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