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Trump, the N-Word and the F-word

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Roger Hicks, Aug 11, 2018.

  1. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    The Graun is all exercised over Trump using "the N-word".

    Next? Now? Never? Nodule? Nictitating? I know lots of N-words. But here's the really nasty bit. Trump has been known to use the N-word in association with the F-word: N*gel F*arage.

    Who else finds this usage of initials such as "N-word", "F-word", etc. mealy-mouthed, repulsive and childish? It's much like calling shit and piss "poo" and "wee". We're not toddlers, for the G-word's sake!

    C-word (Cheers),

    David Loxley likes this.
  2. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    If any one of us was to use the original word here then I expect that they would end up in the fixer.
  3. frank1

    frank1 Well-Known Member

    You need a box set of Dear White People or Atlanta or Insecure or any other programmes relating to the black experience before you start talking about the use of the N word. I'm all for freedom of speech but I am more concerned on how the word affects the people the word is used against and why it exists in the first place

    The word will never go away but if you can honestly say you can see it from the black perspective ( you can't you really can't ). In private conversation why not go for it but in public. Why not be thoughtful. As Charlie Williams once said " It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice".
    taxor likes this.
  4. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    There are various words which were once common but can no longer be used unless you wish to book into one of her majasty's full service hotels. The problem is that this can truly mess up our perception of history. What about Guy Gibson's dog which was also the codeword for successfully breaching the Möhne Dam? Then there was Agatha Christie's most popular book: renamed to "And Then There Were None"? There's a detailed discussion of the word and the arguments surrounding it here.
  5. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Frank,

    I do? Really? A lifetime of reading and critical thinking is set at nought by a "box set" of something?


  6. frank1

    frank1 Well-Known Member

    So you can identify with this guy and this is real life. I'm sure you remember this and would you believe it there are more and we are no doubt appalled. Yet this is happening today. I would not for one minute think I know what it's like to be black. I know what it's like to be white, I tell ya we're lucky aren't we.

  7. retrofit

    retrofit Well-Known Member

    The N word is perfectly ok when used in films and e rated music isn’t it?
  8. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Frank,

    Sorry, but I flatly disagree. You are making the untenable assumption that there is only one "black experience", then compounding the error by saying that it has to be something to do with presumably American "box sets". My blackest ever friend, in skin tone, was a Sri Lankan who went on to be a university professor; my closest "black" friend at the moment lives in Paris with his girlfriend whom he met in Canada; another "black" friend is half Filipino and half African American (and lives in Paris with his boyfriend); and so forth. In the 60s I lived in Bermuda for a while; there weren't many "white" people on Boaz Island, where we lived; and Frances would have had a "black" boyfriend at USC if her father hadn't threatened to cut off all support if she did (50+ years ago life was more racist than it is now). This is/was all "real life" too: a lot more real than watching "box sets" or youtube videos.

    Certes, I have more in common with some of my "black" friends past and present than with many of my "pink" friends. I don't even know what it's like to be you, and your colour doesn't really affect that at all.


  9. SqueamishOssifrage

    SqueamishOssifrage Well-Known Member

    IMNSHO 'Blazing Saddles' is one of the funniest films ever. A dozen full uses and countless partial uses of the 'N' word. I doubt it would be released today. We really have become a miserable holier than thou species since 1974.

    I will quote from a post I made a year ago on this subject:-

    A few weeks ago I visited a very black, very well educated, very well spoken (Queen's English) friend to watch the British Grand Prix, as he had the necessary subscription to do so. After the race and Hamilton's decisive win, he turned to me and said in the broadest possible Jamaican accent:-
    "Damn but dat niggah boi sho can drive".
    Pick the bones out of that, PCers!

    Trannifan likes this.
  10. peterba

    peterba Well-Known Member

    The trouble with this whole subject is that, despite it being (usually) relatively easy to discern when this type of language is being used in jest [by which I mean taking the p*ss out of racism itself] and when it is being used in a manner intended to cause offence, unfortunately, it's often much harder to define.

    I'm not offended by the former usage, but I find the latter deeply offensive. It can be a very fine line. :( On balance, I much prefer the PC approach, rather than sleepwalking back to the kind of language that was in widespread use fifty years ago.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
    Footloose likes this.
  11. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    No-one should be allowed to harm an innocent - that's a given. The problem lies with the "snowflake" syndrome that has as much potential to harm our society as deliberate racism. We need to achieve a sensible balance between intolerance to either side.
  12. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    You can have fun winding up bien pensant liberal friends, too.

    Years ago we had a very good friend who was, technically, a lazy black bastard. Lazy he'd cheerfully admit (though it was only half true -- he worked really hard at some things); his skin colour was sort of hard to deny; and I think his mother was 15 when he was born.

    She was however a very clever, very hard-working woman who ended up owning a very successful night club, making enough money to send her son to a minor public school; the same sort I went to. Once he wound me up by calling and saying on the 'phone, in perfect Received Standard English, "Hello, Hicks: Richards here." I said, "Sorry?" and he said, in broad Jamaican, "It Dennis, mon!"

    Next time I saw him was at a party given by some VERY bien pensant liberal friends. I stretched out my hands for the then-fashionable Jamaican hand-slapping greeting and said, "Hey! It's dat n*****r again!" and we did the hand-slap ritual. Our friends were horrified.

    Then there was the party at our house when we had some Nigerian rum that nobody could drink, but Dennis wanted to try some -- and liked it. We were in the kitchen talking to the same bien-pensant friends when he walked in and said, "Hey, baas, got any mo' of dat white man's fire water?"

    See what I mean about more in common with some of my black friends than some of my white ones?

    And here's the site for Erik K and Lea Lund, the couple I mentioned who met in Canada and now live in Paris. We have a hell of a lot in common with them too.


  13. peterba

    peterba Well-Known Member

    I have just re-read my previous post, and have realised that there could some ambiguity in it.

    For clarity, in this sentence...

    ... "former" and "latter" usage refers to the examples mentioned in the first paragraph of my post (#10) - not the former and latter examples in Squeamish's post (#9).
  14. frank1

    frank1 Well-Known Member

    Roger we all know what it is to be human and we can easily relate to each other's experiences. Put nationalities skin colour religious beliefs and a socio economic climate into the mix and things start to get a bit blurry. You may have friends that have gone on to do very well for themselves. Martin Luther King was doing quite well for himself. How many times have we read of the black city whizz kid being pulled over by the police for no reason he could see. How many times have we seen the black guy on the news asking why he's been stopped for the 5th time this month.

    In another of your posts you mention a guy who you refer to as technically a lazy black bastard. I have arguments with people that use this phrase. They ask why can't I say it I tell them you call one black guy it you call every black person it.

    Words fire the first shots. Guns shut us up.
  15. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    No you don't. Everything is context and context is everything. If you set out to be hurtful that's bad but if your friends see it as banter then it's not. That's how my Nigerian friend explained it to me and I guess he knows. Mind you it's not my style to talk that way so I have to take his word for it.
  16. frank1

    frank1 Well-Known Member

    Can't remember the last time someone called me a white b'.. Can't think of Asian B' as a term I won't go into all the peoples of our world. I don't care for context I care for people being careful with words. If we are to stamp on racism let's use a steel toe capped Doc Martin. Yes I'm being post ironic there.
  17. Scphoto

    Scphoto Well-Known Member

    frank1 likes this.
  18. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Frank,

    Highlight: which is clearly nonsense. My chum is the only person I know for sure to be a lazy black bastard. You're the one who is using stereotypes; mostly, as far as I can see, from a basis of complete ignorance, and watching "box sets". In the school where my mother taught in Bermuda, as far as I recall she was only one of only two "white" teachers; both Cornish, as it happened. And I taught in what was generally regarded as the worst inner city school in Bristol (with strong competition from another, it must be said) where there was quite a strong contingent of Caribbean origin. Not all of them went on "to do very well for themselves" as you patronizingly put it. Some did: I ran into one of my ex-pupils when she was a pharmacist. She was "black". Plenty didn't: the last I heard of one (who was something of a chum of mine, insofar as that can happen between a 26 year old teacher and a 16 year old pupil), he was doing time for GBH. He was "white".

    Yes, my "black" friends have some terrible stories to tell about being on the receiving end of racism. But to try to homogenize that experience, which is what you seem to be doing, is worse than racist: it's lumping together all people who are not the more or less the same colour as you. You're not talking about people: you're talking about stereotypes.

    Nationality means rather less to me than to many people, and I have friends who feel the same. Among my very closest friends I have numbered Tibetans, Britons (of various colours), Indians, Americans (again of various colours) and countless children of refugees: half-Hungarian, half-Polish, half-Armenian... Among merely close friends (the sort of people you invite to dinner or visit for a meal) there are of course French, plus Greeks, at least one Alexandrian Arab, Chinese, Swiss, Sri Lankan, Moroccan, Israeli, German, Belgian, Japanese, Italian, Canadian... Many of us have lived in multiple countries: we are, in May's vile phrase, "citizens of nowhere." We don't really CARE where people come from, or what colour they are. We notice, sure, just as you notice whether someone is tall or short, male or female. So? There are two possible futures. One like this, and the other based on "divide and rule". You are closer to the latter than to the former.

    I don't even know where some of them originally came from, because it's never come up. Some "have done well for themselves". Others haven't. As for being assassinated by bigots, you don't need to be rich or successful for that. Just live in the USA. When it comes to words and guns, how many gun owners do you know? Frances and I own guns, but we don't shoot people. Nor do we spout second-hand views on race.


  19. frank1

    frank1 Well-Known Member

    Roger are you telling me Lazy black bastard is not a racist term, oh hang on silly me its Lazy black ***T now that's the racist one isn't it.
  20. frank1

    frank1 Well-Known Member

    I grew up in Ireland born 1959. First actual black man I met was a doctor. At the time I was on a course and we all had to have a check up. I waiting downstairs for my turn but everyone coming down the stairs were sniffing and as they pasted they would say. It stinks up there, when I eventually was seen. I found the reason for my firsthand dealings with racists.

    You so ignorantly throw away the tv programs I mentioned as not being worthy of thought. Well black people for countless years have not had the greatest of opportunities to voice their opinions. These programs are made by and starring black people. You can tell me about your personal thoughts with your friends and how the did or didn't do. It doesn't matter because they are only a small group, there's a far bigger picture out there.

    I'm really glad that these programs are out there because it doesn't matter how the word is shown. You may regard yourself as superior because you read a book. These programs reach a far larger audience and the fact that the productions are predominantly black is a fantastic thing.

    In my day we had Roots today we have for one Dear White People. Roots showed us the horror of slavery. Dear White People shows us WTF it is to be black in this world. The point of your thread is the use of words. There are those that bemoan the thought they cannot not use certain words and see it as a loss of freedom. there's freedom and there's freedom. As King said I want to live in a world where we are all free. Well Martin that unfortunately is going to take some time.
    beatnik69 likes this.

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