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The disadvantage of the Brexit thread...

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Roger Hicks, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. peterba

    peterba Well-Known Member

    Well said, Roger. In particular, the second point, viz.:

    is conveniently ignored by those who would use the EU immigration argument as a reason for leaving the EU.

    Of those with whom I have raised this point in discussion, almost no-one - regardless of their EU stance - has known (or, in some cases, perhaps admitted to knowing) about this. The matter of EU immigration could have been avoided, or substantially de-fused, by some clear articulation of the facts, and some effective action, rather than letting the problem fester.
  2. P_Stoddart

    P_Stoddart Well-Known Member

    After what the EU said about a more federal EU I wonder if a second vote the leave would actually go up. :)

    Malta by the way has had immigration problems as well and end up in rows with the EU.
  3. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Kippery of the worst kind. Do the "immigrants" to Malta come from the EU? No.

    Do lackwit kippers distinguish between free movement of people in the EU and economic migrants or genuine refugees from outside the EU? Apparently not.

    They just blindly blame the EU for everything that goes wrong; presumably because they get all their "news" from the Mail and the like.

    Really, you should be able to do better than this.


  4. P_Stoddart

    P_Stoddart Well-Known Member

    The Malta problems were reported by the BBC and many other news agency.

    As I said the leave vote was totally predictable (I actually made money it LOL) because the core issue is immigration.

    That has not changed since the vote in 2016. So I believe a second vote will come out higher for leave again.

    A lot of UK citizens see a core part of sovereignty as a country's right to control its borders. We don't have that right at the moment.

    One definition of sovereignty:

    "Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, WITHOUT any interference from outside source or bodies."

    Under that expansion of the word we don't have sovereignty at this time.

    Let be if in 1974 the public had been told that joining the EEC would result in open borders in 1992 then I suspect that vote would have been NO.
  5. Craig20264

    Craig20264 Well-Known Member

    Pish. I told myself not to get involved in this thread. We have full control of our borders to Non EU nationals at the moment, but still manage to let in more than we do from EU member states. I don't see your issue.
  6. peterba

    peterba Well-Known Member

    And... we also have control of our borders to EU nationals - but we chose not to use that control, and now the more-unpleasant of our politicians are blaming the EU, and the immigrants. :(
  7. Craig20264

    Craig20264 Well-Known Member

    And... I like Italian food. The more the merrier I say.
  8. peterba

    peterba Well-Known Member

    And... don't forget the wine... ;)
  9. Trannifan

    Trannifan Well-Known Member

    From a Spiegel article on the Brexit 'negotiations': "Brexit," says a high ranking EU diplomat," follows no economic but rather a political logic." Assuming that one can speak from logic at all. Or, as a former Whitehall brexit ministry civil servant puts it," There is neither a plan A nor a plan B." Not only that but HMG seem to have read the position of the other 27 EU countries completely wrong - apparently Davis & co. had hoped to split the EU countries according to their financial situations but, unusually for Brussels and the EU, they are all sticking together.
    I may have to revise the title of my 'Brexit' photo...

    Inside the brexit ministry with neither a plan A nor a plan B.....................

  10. Footloose

    Footloose Well-Known Member

    Saw this and thought of B****T negotiations :

    spinno likes this.
  11. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Highlight 1: Yes. and what are those problems? Migration from inside the EU? Clearly not. Sure, it is entirely open to you to refuse to understand this -- and it must be either willful refusal or sheer stupidity, as it bears no relation to the facts.

    Highlight 2 (Under that expansion of the word we don't have sovereignty at this time)
    And never will have, not least because it is a simple-minded and worthless definition. There is ALWAYS "interference from outside source or bodies." That's what treaties are about (including trade treaties). A country that refuses to abide by international norms will always be at best a second-rate state and at worst a pariah state. Which would you prefer? Second rate or pariah?


  12. P_Stoddart

    P_Stoddart Well-Known Member

    Having looked at the Catalan issues, raised a question.

    Looking at the vote in June 2016 it seems there were 13million register voters who could not be bothered to vote.

    So there are a large amount of people who don't care either way if we are in the EU or not?

    There was another block who were of voting age and not registered so again not bother?
  13. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    No-one in their right mind imagined that Brexit was in with a chance.

    Admittedly this forces one to include Cameron, D. in "in their right mind", but as the old saying goes, "On a sunny day the biggest fool may say that the sky is blue, but the sky is still blue."

    It does look rather as if Brexiteers are terrified of a second referendum, and will do anything to avoid it. Those in favour of Remain are however totally in favour, for two reasons:

    First, we are pretty convinced we'd win.The longer the Brexitshambles goes on, the likelier this becomes.

    Second, if we lose, those who have ALREADY seen the decline of the pound and how the banks, etc., are leaving, will have won conclusively, and the UK will be beyond help. At the moment, there's still hope.


  14. P_Stoddart

    P_Stoddart Well-Known Member

    So you are following the logical that the 13million didn't bother because they thought remain would carry it anyway.

    Therefore now they realize them being lazy not voting at all has allowed a leave situation.

    They would vote, it would explain leavers being fearful of a second vote.

    If only 15% of the 13million who failed to vote and vote remain the outcome would possibly switch to remain. Assuming the 13million are remain voters who could not be bothered.
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  15. Trannifan

    Trannifan Well-Known Member

    Look at the result of the general election................................

  16. dangie

    dangie Senior Knobhead

    I've said this over and over again. No matter how ill-informed the leave voters were, at least they got off their backsides (or filled in their postal vote) and voted. It's not really that difficult.

    I voted Remain. I'm just as disappointed as others on this forum the way the vote went. But I refuse to pin the 'blame' on the Leavers. I pin it on the 'Couldn't be Bothered'.

    As quoted above, of the 13million who didn't vote, it was probably because many thought the number of remain voters who did vote would be enough. Well you reap what you sow.

    'Brexit' could and should have been consigned to history.
  17. Footloose

    Footloose Well-Known Member

    Does anyone here, (such as myself) think that during the Referendum debates we were being fed far less information than we should have been, maybe because our politicians and the media, didn't want us to discover how misinformed they were, or that a number of previously concealed actions by our political parties would be uncovered because they think we only need to know what they want us to know, rather than what we should know? The debate was also hijacked by those more interested in the pushing their NF-style views, rather than about the EU debate.

    There was a lot of talk about controlling our borders, but hardly anything about the fact that the departments concerned are seriously undermanned and maybe preferring to dealing with things via officials working through masses of paperwork (Have you ever seen the reams of paper needed for someone outside the EU has to present in order to just get a holiday Visa?) Do these officials really need to know not only who someone's parents are, but also who their grandparents are?!!) Furthermore, the Embassies in the country they applying in, transfer the relevant paperwork for processing to another country, so that there is a significant 'disconnect' between those applying and the officials involved in the process. When officials wish to assess the 'suitability' of someone entering the UK, does such a system make any sense whatsoever?
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  18. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Worse than that both sides fed us lies. Each did so because "the others were". At the end of the day the leavers told more and bigger lies because they're selfish gits or xenophobes (or both) who thought they'd personally profit from leaving the EU and didn't care who they hurt. As to the second question - see the answer to the first question. :(
    Trannifan and Roger Hicks like this.
  19. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    And that's not counting the ones who voted Leave who would now change their minds. Yes, there might be some who voted Remain and changed their minds. A lot fewer, though, I'd bet.


  20. SXH

    SXH Well-Known Member

    There were also some remainers who voted leave to teach the government a lesson or some such. Expecting an overwhelming remain vote so their votes wouldn't matter.

    Or so I've read.
    Roger Hicks likes this.

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