Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Roger Hicks, Sep 25, 2017.
Turkeys voting for christmas.............................
It is silly to suppose that itinerant land workers are un skilled. The work they do is both hard and needs a great deal of expertise. In the past these jobs were done by home grown itinerants, who were lured into the factories by higher wages.
The advent of land workers from the EU allowed farmers to again introduce labour intensive crops to their farms.
The UK has benefited from this by not having to import so many fruits and vegtables. They could not have done this without the advent of EU workers. British workers with the necessary temperament and skills were not available. Nor are they prepared to do that work today.
EU workers took no one's jobs.
We really must teach children how to spot a lying git before we teach them geometry. Then we teach them geometry so they can build the scaffolds to hang the lying gits from.
When Poland joined the EU, Germany suddenly got worked up about 'hordes of polish workers invading and take jobs' although gangs of seasonal workers had been coming for years. It was ordained that agricultural employers would be supplied with workers by the local job centres..........As the less blinkered of you have no doubt already guessed. it all went horribly wrong...I live in an area with vineyards, orchards and asparagus farms. What happened? People kept disappearing for long cigarette breaks, the next day only about half of them turned up, the others had either managed to get sick-notes- 'bad back'- or simply couldn't be arsed to get up early and , to cap it all, those that turned up needed constant supervision and were totally unreliable and generally incapable. On the asparagus farms, despite being told and shown how to pick the stuff, they just yanked it any old how out of the ground and so ruined a lot of the crop. Consequently the affected farmers leant very heavily upon the responsible politicians both local and national - "If you want to be nominated for re-election............." etc.- and not long afterwards the polish seasonal workers were back. They all knew their jobs and were capable of supervising themselves, which is how the farmers liked it.
In short, itinerant/seasonal workers may not have degrees or GCSEs, but they know their jobs and are generally reliable. Home grown itnerants have also suffered, I suspect, from clamp downs on inofficial campsites, the limited capacity on official sites and government policies aimed at getting these people to become settled. Even if the government were to totally scrap the dole and social benefits I can't see many unemployed british workers lining up for the dirty jobs.
And don't forget, by all accounts it was generally those areas with very few foreigners -EU or otherwise - which voted for brexit as a means to end immigration.
In the light of the suggested immigration rules for EU citizens which have been in the press recently, I doubt that many of them will be rushing to fill vacancies in the NHS........
.....and unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) it's politicians from both sides who are negotiating the exit. It'll never get finished. They'll all milk it for as long as they can.
not to mention the civil servants, accountants, lawyers, assorted advisors etc...
So I won't.
No. Just reminding the REAL losers -- the ones who think they won -- of what they're throwing away: everyone's prosperity. And of what they're stealing from those who voted to keep the rights they already had.
That's why I started this new thread. There are Brexiteers on the AP. A new thread every now and then may just entice some of them to take a look at the facts and arguments, rather than once again regurgitating sound bites from the gutter press and the Boride -- and perhaps to start thinking about the aforementioned self-impoverishment and theft.
But Roger, you're assuming there are Brexiteers that can think and reason things.
Well, they keep SAYING they can do both, in the teeth of the evidence. Why don't they show us all their staggering knowledge of the facts and powers of deduction?
Tru ' dat! Alf Garnett was in the 60s and nothing's changed
Absolutely not advocating murder. How about we just accept many people will always vote for self-interest but fail to see we all need to help each other in order for our self-interest to be served? Most people ( not all I'm sure ) believe they are acting correctly or at least that their idea of what's best for the world is correct. Graham Greene said something like "mostly sin is a failure of the imagination"
So I'm not buying the idea that politicians are different from any other human beings. Why can't they be educated too? Seems a bit wrong to curse them and educate the people that put them there and persuade them to behave as they do.
That is a bit too convoluted to get my mind around.
When I get things wrong. it would be rare for any one else to be affected at all.
When Politicians get things wrong we are all stuffed.
Politicians decisions are different in kind.
Just like anyone who claims to have special expertise. They claim to know better than the rest of us how to manage large groups of people for the benefit of those people. When they get it wrong dropping them into a snake pit doesn't seem unreasonable. OK - I accept that it's a dirty job for the snakes...
I realise that this predates the election but I find it very interesting.
That is certainly interesting in that it demonstrates the very poor correlation between actual voters, constituency results and mp's preferences.
And that only a fraction of a change over 1 percent would have reversed the result.
One or even 2 percent is usually considered statistically insignificant. So should not have been used to make such a fundimental change to the country.
Roger you make it sound like the UK is a baby and the EU is it's mum and therefore the UK is totally dependent on it.
Remember we buy more from the EU than we sell to the EU. They gain I believe by £65billions every year from the free trade with the UK.
All systems including a country have breaking points have limits. Looking at the population numbers for UK against a land mass size we are reaching a threshold I suspect. Do you really think the UK can maintain a population of 100 million at the same level as today?
With the borders open to the EU it could easily hit that level in less than 25 years.
Of course with HMG now suggesting a delay of 2 years thus pushing real leave until 2021. Although I wonder if the EU will allow that?
But we also have to accept that we can't have too low a population either because that would affect industry etc.
I am sure there is a sweet spot just like with all systems. A balance which either side can cause serious problems.
There must by pure logic be a upper limit on the simple fact you run out of land to build on for all structures.
From the figures the UK I believe has one of the highest population density of the EU member countries.
Anyway as it stands we are suppose to be leaving. Do the pro EU forum members think they can stop it? Get it called off? Maybe if Labour win?
There has been talk of a second vote?
Well, good luck with that, Roger. But surely if reason was important to brexiteers, the unfolding events since the referendum would have had everyone out on the streets demanding we stay in the EU?
I'm not really convinced logic is the answer in persuading the leavers. Fear seems to have been their primary motive rather than rationality and that's a tricky thing to counter
Not so our population is higher than most but some way down the list.
Trade is hard to measure...where we gain is in services, especially financial services and insurance.
After brexit we will still need to buy much the same goods as now, but they will be more expensive, unless we stay in the free market.
However they are working towards taking over much of our services them selves, and relocating to new financial centres around Frankfurt.
We will be worse off in every respect than we are now.
Trade balances with europe can only deteriorate. It is fancyful to think we can make up the difference with new markets.
If that were so easy why have we not done so before now.?
First, have you ever been to Belgium or Holland? Both have significantly higher population densities than the UK. Or Malta: nearly 4x as high. The "sorry, no room" argument just doesn't hold water. It probably wouldn't even with your fanciful, alarmist and substantially insupportable "100 million".
Second, it is entirely open to the UK to restrict EU immigration by using EU rules, but UK governments have been too stupid/lazy/weak/incompetent (choose all that apply) to use the measures that are at their disposal (as with medical service charge-backs).
Third, the argument that every single EU country is going to lose more by ceasing to trade with the UK than than the UK will lose by trading with all EU countries together is simplistic to the point of simple minded. Stop thinking about "UK trade with the EU" and start thinking about "UK trade with France". Or Germany. Or Spain. Or... Well, there are plenty to choose from.
I sincerely believe
(1) that there should be no Brexit until the real shape of Britain's Brexit terms are known
(2) that there should be a second referendum when the real shape of Britain's Brexit terms are known and before Brexit
(3) that anyone who voted for Brexit again when these terms are known would need to be incredibly stupid or incredibly ill-informed or delusionally optimistic
(4) that a second vote in favour of Brexit would mark the end of the so-called UK, together with the economic collapse of England
Yes, plenty of us are trying to stop it, and yes, it is entirely possible.
Separate names with a comma.