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The disadvantage of the Brexit thread...

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Roger Hicks, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    ...elsewhere on the forum is that there are almost no Brexiteers on it. They know they have no arguments; they know that "project fear" has turned out to be "project truth"; they are terrified of a new referendum -- so they pretend they have the faintest idea of what is going to happen. Odd, that, because the people who are supposed to be negotiating it do not appear to have the faintest idea of what they are doing. Come on, Brexiteers: give us some arguments for why you were right, and how a falling pound, disappearing jobs and unpicked fruit are good for the UK and involve TAKING BACK CONTROL. Take a look at Mark Steel...

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  2. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    There is an interesting psychological parallel here. Research shows that "pessimists" are usually far more realistic about outcomes than "optimists". Labeling realists as pessimists is a time-worn tactic.
     
    steveandthedogs and Roger Hicks like this.
  3. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

  4. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    A reasonable argument. My opinion is that a referendum was a good idea if 2 simple rules had been applied. The 1st should have been that all claims on the matter had to be made under oath and the 2nd that the turnout had to reach 95% for the outcome to be valid.
     
  5. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    Would not happen. 66% in favour would have been more normal.
     
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  6. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    I didn't say it would happen or even could be made to happen. However if 95% can't be bothered to turn out to vote at all there's no way it's a valid reflection of the citizens' views on the matter.
     
  7. dangie

    dangie Senior Knobhead

    As much as I'm unhappy with the referendum result, my major gripe is not directed against those who voted Leave, afterall, right or wrong, they were entitled to a vote and they voted.

    My gripe is to the 28% who for whatever reason did not vote. Of course there would have been genuine reasons as to why some didn't vote, but I'm sure in most cases it was either totally undecided or simply couldn't be bothered.

    Therefore I would have taken their lack of vote to be a case of satisfied with our membership of the EU and added to the remain total.

    The Government made a cock-up on the ballot paper. There should only have been one question (as was) but only one 'X' box. If you wanted Leave you voted. If you wanted Remain you stayed at home.

    If this quite radical approach had been taken the approx result would have been 29,000,000 remain & 17,5000,000 leave.

    Would certainly have made 'the Lounge' a boring place......
     
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  8. nimbus

    nimbus Well-Known Member

    Or that they didn't care one way or another. I voted remain, I accept that the vote to leave won, I still think it was the wrong result, however I don't keep banging on about it.
     
  9. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    Of course you should bang on about it if you believe it was the wrong result.
    The Brexit supporters banged on through years of set backs, to get the result they wanted.
    The vote was not binding on anyone, so why should we not bang on about it.
    The result was too marginal to support a fundamental change in anything.
     
  10. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Why not? Do you not have the courage of your convictions? Or (more likely) because it hasn't affected you too badly -- YET?

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  11. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    I love my Norwegian friend in town's description of it.
    Britex
    I didn't correct her!
    We talked about it briefly this morning. Her Norwegian nephew was debating coming here, but has changed his mind now, due to the uncertainty over Britex! Ha!
    Anne-Lise ap.jpg
    Anne-Lise
     
  12. steveandthedogs

    steveandthedogs Well-Known Member

    Sadiq Khan has just called for a second referendum.

    Sensible chap.

    S
     
    Trannifan and Roger Hicks like this.
  13. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Steve,

    Quite. If people are stupid enough to vote for it a second time -- well, that's the UK ****ed and there's no point in arguing with them. They'll probably not re-enter the EU in my lifetime unless I live for another 20 years. I'd leave it a few months before the next referendum, though: give the Brexiteers even more rope to hang themselves.#

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    steveandthedogs likes this.
  14. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    Exactly. There is every chance Brexit would gain more votes right now. Especially if Corbyn takes the missing 28% with him into a soft Brexit vote as seems likely. The German result shows the tide is still running to the far right.
     
  15. dangie

    dangie Senior Knobhead

    Once again most of those who want to leave will go out and vote.
    Of those who want remain only half will bother to go out and vote.

    We are already in the EU. You should only have to vote if you want to leave. The voting form should say something like 'I wish the United Kingdom to leave the European Union'' with just one tick box.

    So if you don't vote you are down as 'Remain'
     
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  16. Gezza

    Gezza Well-Known Member

    The last ge was nearly 70% which was apparently the highest turn out for 25 years.
     
  17. SqueamishOssifrage

    SqueamishOssifrage Well-Known Member

    What he is saying is an echo of something advised to me by my father - never argue with anyone who is does not appear to be intellectually capable of understanding you, as it's a waste of time. Unfortunately, this leaves very few Brexiteers with whom most rational people can have a reasonable discussion. Certainly, the results I have had from people whom I knew to be Brexiteers at the time of the referendum have only made highly charged emotional, not rational, response's to the current state of affairs.
     
    steveandthedogs likes this.
  18. peterba

    peterba Well-Known Member

    Other posts above have alluded to the fact that Farage and his ilk spent the last 40-ish years defiantly banging on about their dislike of the 1975 result - therefore... in the interests of balance;)... they can just sod off if they think they can order the rest of us to be quiet, just because the 2016 referendum went the way that suited them.

    The real lesson from all of this is that the referendum is an essentially worthless tool, that rarely (if ever) achieves any useful result. Our now-remarkably-absent former PM should have realised this, and might have done, had he utilised the tiny amount of grey matter he actually possessed, before deciding to call a referendum in his feeble and misguided attempt to save his party's electoral fortunes.
     
    steveandthedogs likes this.
  19. P_Stoddart

    P_Stoddart Well-Known Member

    What seems to be lost is the core issue which caused the leave vote success.

    Uncontrolled immigration which is now a foundation block of EU membership. Free movement cannot be stopped unless you leave the EU.

    That is what drove the vote to leave.

    There are millions of UK citizen out there who are secretly worried about the population of UK rising higher and higher and local service basically falling apart from the overload.

    We are a island you cannot change that so there is a limit to population on this land mass, it is that simple.

    It's a bit like having a bucket you keep pouring water into with no way of turning off the tap. What happens when the bucket is full? You get a very big mess. :)

    So it is no lie by being in the EU a member country has unrestricted immigration. Leave and you can control the borders of your country.

    Keep in mind that the free movement came AFTER 1974 vote to join. We was already a member before that situation came into force.

    So it was not raised in the 1974 campaign or the 1975 campaign as well.

    Force onto the UK by the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.

    What is the betting that had the free movement been on the table so to speak in 1974 the vote might have gone the other way?

    Oh and by the way back in 1975 Mr Corbyn was pro leave. He felt that the EEC was a threat to democracy and jobs. LOL

    To be balanced Thatcher was pro stay in EEC on the grounds of free trade. That is the key we joined on the basis of free trade not free movement of people.

    I was myself was pro EU during 1970s and 1980s until Maastricht then I worked out the dangers to a island nation such as the UK.

    If the UK can get what it voted for in 1974 ie free trade then that would be fine.

    Otherwise I suspect the silent voters will still want to leave to control borders.
     
  20. spinno

    spinno Well-Known Member

    Hang on..
    shouldn't all these points be in the other thread...:rolleyes:
     

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