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Photographers help G20 death probe

Discussion in 'News - Discussion' started by CSBC, Apr 6, 2009.

  1. Barney

    Barney Well-Known Member

    Well it suited the remark it responded to. [​IMG]

    The man assaulted a bystander leading to his death, of course he hould be crucified. I can't fathom how anyone can think that the police should be immune from the laws which govern everyone else.
     
  2. Barney

    Barney Well-Known Member

    No, it's a comment on our police force. And low level violence? The man died!
     
  3. ermintrude

    ermintrude Hinkypuff

    What complete bollocks. The guy had a heart attack about 10 minutes later FFS, the chances are certainly not zero. He may well have been 'provocative' but a) you don't know there isnt a valid reason for this and b) even if he is being a tw@t of his own accord that isnt a reason to attack him, expecially pre-emptively.
     
  4. ermintrude

    ermintrude Hinkypuff

    Ah, so not a valid reason at all then.
     
  5. Barney

    Barney Well-Known Member

    I think my expectations are perfectly realistic, and based on informed conversations with policemen, ex policemen and wannabe policemen. An expectation not to have unreasonable force used by an officer of the law on me is perfecty reasonable, and it it weren't I'd be prtesting to find out why.
     
  6. TheFatControlleR

    TheFatControlleR :Devil's Advocaat: Forum Admin

    Agreed. Though I won't 'echo' that, merely 'mirror' it... ;)
     
  7. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    Nope, but an understandable one.

    Besides, it seems to have been taken for granted that his death was related to being hit on the legs once and pushed. Whereas there could possibly be no connection at all.
     
  8. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    but again, you are not qualified to judge what is "unreasonable/reasonable" force.
     
  9. TH-Photos

    TH-Photos Well-Known Member

    I disagree, the video is perfect evidence of why the authorities should never have sole use of any photos or film. Without this film there would be no investigation by the IPCC, not that their political masters will let them reach the obvious conclusion.
     
  10. spinno

    spinno Well-Known Member

    ..but we have Case Law...remember Tony Martin the Norfolk farmer who was tried for shooting a burglar who bled to death at his property....he used "reasonable force" in his opinion and ended up in jail.
    He was only protecting his property....
    I'm no "expert" but if I were a member of a jury (which I might be one day) and this was the evidence presented to me along with other verbal evidence which would I take seriously or more correctly more factually representative of what happened....
    The Devil in this is in the detail.
    If we ain't party to what's said in the lead up to the "assault" then we have difficulty in what actually provoked it...therefore it has to be hoped that all those who were privy to this info actually come forward and tell the truth...
     
  11. ermintrude

    ermintrude Hinkypuff

    Like it being understandable that a man kills his wife for cheating on him, or a hoodie mugs a pensioner for drug money? Sorry sey, it still doesn't make it right, valid, excusable does it?

    On the contrary sey I haven't taken it for granted at all. As I said in my previous post:

    Its possible the attack brought on the heart attack, it's also perfectly possible it was a complete coinicidence or that he was already unwell which could cause both the heart attack and any provocative or unusual behaviour. Many things could cause it, drugs (medical/non-medical), an underlying medical condition, we just don't know.

    But I don't see any evidence so far for the necessity for a guy to take the time to remove his number, stick a balaclava on and hit from behind a guy who is already walking away from him with his hands in his pockets. You tell him to leave, he leaves, then you attack him anyway?
     
  12. Barney

    Barney Well-Known Member

    Oh please, there's a distinct air of metamorphorical rock about that statement.
     
  13. Phylo

    Phylo Member

    I would like to see the CPS treat the officer concerned in exactly the same way as they would a member of the public who had assaulted and then pushed over a serving officer, who subsequently died (relatedly or not).

    I am, however, not holding my breath.

    Provocation or not, I very much doubt if response of this nature is to be found in the police training manual, and this episode has done nothing at all to improve the growing antipathy towards PC George Dixon et al (as evidenced by much of this thread).
     
  14. beejaybee

    beejaybee Marvin

    Re: Oddities, IMVHO, that I noticed watching the video of Mr. Tomlinson ..

    Or perhaps he was already ill. People in the early stages of a heart attack are deficient in oxygen, and people with oxygen deficiency (anoxia) often act in a way which doesn't seem to be rational.

    IMHO there is more than adequate evidence of an assault on Mr Tomlinson by a policeman, but unlike the Menezes case this is clearly not a case of murder. If it can be proved that the assault caused or materially contributed to Mr Tomlinson's death, then a charge of manslaughter seems justified.

    There also needs to be an investigation into the alleged prevention of medical attention from the student.
     
  15. TimF

    TimF With as stony a stare as ever Lord Reith could hav

    Re: Oddities, IMVHO, that I noticed watching the video of Mr. Tomlinso

    What a curious attitude. I wasn't aware the police expected to be treated like old-fashioned royalty where turning one's back to the monarch was considered beyond the pale.

    And frankly, why shouldn't Mr Tomlinson have had an attitude at the time. All he wanted was to get home after a day's work; instead he, like the office workers who filmed some at least of the footage of this incident, was prevented from leaving the area by the police. I don't blame him if he gave the rozzers some lip. They aren't beyond criticism you know.

    As for the discussion of whether the officer concerned removed his identification number (which I believe is a breach of rules anyway - those with longer memories will recall similar behaviour during the miners' strike caused uproar), the footage I linked to from Channel 4 is a bit longer. In the same film shown on TV, Mr Tomlinson is seen leaving to the right of the scene after getting to his feet. The officer who struck him is meanwhile seen also moving to the right, adjusting his balaclava (which no other police are wearing FWIW), and consulting with a senior colleague. What were they discussing? Was there a pre-arrangement of this assault on Tomlinson if he had been kicking off at the police? All this needs to be disclosed in the enquiry.
     
  16. Barney

    Barney Well-Known Member

    As an aside, if anyone wants to buy a Cisco Telepresence systems as advertised before the clip, I'd be more than happy to give them a special AP discount! :D
     
  17. Done_rundleCams

    Done_rundleCams AP Forum Ambassador to Canada

    Re: Oddities, IMVHO, that I noticed watching the video// ermitrude

    Hi Erm,

    Perhaps, I should have stated that I found it "odd" relative to how I might have acted/reacted in
    the same situation.... that is, of course, if I were not photographing the event or, in some cases,
    even if I were photographing the event.

    Cheers,

    Jack
     
  18. TimF

    TimF With as stony a stare as ever Lord Reith could hav

    Re: Oddities, IMVHO, that I noticed watching the video// ermitrude

    We should also bear in mind that Mr Tomlinson had, prior to these events, been knocked down by the police, hit twice with a baton, and was then knocked down again after getting up (stated by an un-named female freelance photographer a few days ago).

    If his attitude towards the police at this time was of a hostile bent, is it surprising?
     
  19. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    Re: Oddities, IMVHO, that I noticed watching the video// ermitrude

    by the same token why had the police behaved in this manner with an 'innocent' man before.........could it be that his provocative attitude of hostile bent had been from before this last specific incident?
     
  20. TimF

    TimF With as stony a stare as ever Lord Reith could hav

    Re: Oddities, IMVHO, that I noticed watching the video// ermitrude

    Could it be that he was simply wanting to go home after a day's work, and tempers flared when the filth wouldn't let him? I wonder if that would count as unlawful detention.
     

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