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I really do wish

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by willie45, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    What about minor tasks like managing the economy still sagging from the banks fracas and now depressed by Brexit?
     
  2. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    Define the type of economic leadership you want to see and we can add it to the list. Are we looking for Nordic-style tax and spend, or austerity? If we are aiming at liberal democracy I'd say it needs to be the former, but open to discussion of course.
     
  3. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Merkel's the least ghastly leader of a western democracy at the moment so far as I'm concerned. On the burka question I think banks that ban people entering while wearing crash helmets should have to allow it or ban people who wear burkas. Equality is all in a social democracy.
     
  4. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    Bonus points for anyone who can name the leaders of all EU states, Norway and Switzerland (Iceland being in a bit of a state due to paedophile scandal we can wait until a new gov is formed) and give a summary of their positions on key policies.

    Also equality by the implication of the burka/helmet example means all medical conditions would be given the same treatment (ie false equivalence!)...
     
  5. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Perhaps in your mind. Not in my opinion.
     
  6. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    AND she's a woman. It's a well-known fact that their brains overheat.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  7. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    Defender of liberal democracy. I see that to take precedance over all of the points in Zou's list.
    Zou's list is very desirable and is applicable if everybody plays by the values of a liberal democracy. Some people do not respect the values of liberal democracy and I see no reason why those people's rights should be defended.

    For example: Is it a defendable right for a person to claim religeous freedom to practice a religeon which demands its followers to kill those who do not share the same beliefs?
     
  8. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member


    No. Long answer: the majority of that religion who don't agree with such a demand need to get off their backsides and make their disapproval clear. It's the deafening silence which leads others to believe that they might just be in sympathy with it.
     
    Roger Hicks and Learning like this.
  9. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Andrew,

    And, perhaps, if no-one else is raising their voices against it, the majority may think, "Oh, I ought to kill the unbeliever too."

    I once asked a Moslem acquaintance whether he shouldn't kill me, and he looked a bit shifty and said, "Well, theoretically, yes, but nobody really believes that."

    The enormous problem with Islam is the lack of any major, important religious leader with wide international credibility -- someone like HH Dalai Lama or the Pope or even the Archbishop of Canterbury -- who can say, "Stop being murderous lunatics." Sure, the three figures listed have no supreme authority but they're regarded as a lot more important world-wide than the average mullah.

    Judaism, above all in its Israeli and New York forms, suffers from something similar: there are plenty of mad fundamentalists whose views carry very nearly as much weight as rabbis who are decent Jews, and there is no-one to knock their heads together.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    SqueamishOssifrage likes this.
  10. Footloose

    Footloose Well-Known Member

    The last leader or figurehead of the Sunni Islamic (Ottoman) Caliphate was Abdulmejid II who died in 1944, and did not 'nominate' his successor. It's possible that if he had done so, things might be a lot more stable than they currently are.
     
  11. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Possibly, but then, all counterfactual conditionals are true.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  12. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    KSA is 'stable'. That's not - in itself - a measure of virtue.
     
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  13. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Perhaps not but many who live there appear to be satisfied with the situation. We should beware of assuming that the western model of democracy is the only system of government capable of delivering the maximum happiness to the greatest proportion of a population.
     
  14. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    Where 'the greatest proportion' excludes women. Nice.
     
  15. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    There is no greater arrogance than to tell others how to live. We've been trying that since 1177 and look how well it's worked out for all concerned. The Saudi people need to work out their destiny without our assistance - not that they want it in any case.
     
  16. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    No. Just no. You may be happy with slavery and the subjugation of women. Most people aren't. That includes Saudi women and slaves (forced labourers if you insist on being generous).

    Given your name, I'd no idea you were a Saudi man, but you presumably are. No-one else would attempt to defend that vile regime. Except perhaps a few Tories and arms dealers.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    SqueamishOssifrage and Learning like this.
  17. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    It is also a colonist's mindset to presume - incorrectly - that women's rights are a western creation. We colonised and destroyed many a matriarchal/women-respecting society turning the globe British.

    Edit to add - isn't the subjugation of women "telling others how to live"? Even worse than arrogant, as it uses force to keep the status quo.
     
  18. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Very much so. Tibet cheerfully accepted polygamy and polyandry, and I think that Bhutan is to this day matriarchal when it comes to inheritance. As are many western countries currently occupied by China ("western" in relation to the west of the Chinese Empire).
     
  19. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member


    Nor am I. I find it vile but I also find vile the western mindset that we have the right and indeed the duty to "solve" the problems of other societies. Just how many countries must we destroy before we realise that we may detest the ways of another society but we only have the right to ignore them? We've screwed up Iraq and Libya and Afghanistan, created chaos in most of Africa and yet the "superior morality" of the west must be foist upon yet more societies? Include me out.
     
  20. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    No-one said anything about imposing our morality.

    Oh, and guess who screwed up KSA, installing the current dynasty? I'll give you a clue - we live there.
     

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