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I am being published !!!!!

Discussion in 'Talking Pictures' started by Sphinx, Jun 21, 2014.

  1. mikeh201355

    mikeh201355 Well-Known Member

    I recall travelling in SE Asia, staying in reasonable hostel accommodation and I was initially surprised that the staff would sleep on benches in the corridors rather than take one of the many empty beds. And after a while it struck me that this is probably how many of them sleep at home so don't know any different and who am I to say they have an uncomfortable life. Sure, they would probably relish a comfortable mattress if they ever had chance to buy one, but at that particular moment any sense of deprivation was not the want of a comfy bed.


    *tongue in cheek*
    One of the cruellest things you can do to people is give them hope. No matter how poor they may appear to us, they accept their lot and have their priorities right (take a bow, Maslow). But convince them they have hope for tomorrow and you go from one relatively contented person to someone whose sense of priorities is suddenly all screwed up.
    Is this a reason for keeping them subjugated? Not a jot - I remember one historian commenting that most revolutions happening not when the poverty is at its worst but when life is on the upswing and suddenly people realise there is a better future and the leaders are the ones holding them back (I don't know if it si true but it sounds sensible to me!!). However, this is a case for understanding and respecting what they want to achieve even if it isn't what we think they should be wanting to achieve.


    Boy, from a picture of a fire in Wiltshire to aid work in Tibet in just 8 pages. You gotta love this forum chart lark! :p
     
  2. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Para 1: Well, I have. Your arguments are no more convincing for being reiterated.

    Para 2/3: How are you using it then?

    Paras 4-end: This is patronizing rubbish from someone who has no idea what the situation was. I was asked by the Administration in Exile to help. I was in Dharamsala for something else entirely -- writing a biography of HH Dalai Lama -- and they approached me. They told me what they wanted. Then, when I got to the villages, they said exactly what they wanted. I have spent countless hours talking to Tibetans at all levels, from HH Dalai Lama to beggars (admittedly with translators sometimes). But you are so sure that I am a worthless do-gooder anti-feminist that you are convinced you know better than someone who has actually been there. You're the one who is being self righteous and telling others (especially me, right now) what's best. "Truly helping others" means getting off your arse and doing something, not sniping at those who have experience of what they are talking about.

    If you knew anything at all about Tibetan culture you would now that chapatties and dhall are no more the average Tibetan's idea of an ideal diet than they are mine.

    What do you think I was trying to do, if not work for Tibetan freedom?

    The wheelchair example is just another example of your patronizing, arrogant mind set. Why on earth should I assume that? Sorry: I'm not going to assume things just to suit your preconceptions.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  3. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    No, Roger, it's not. It's a slimy phrase coined in the late 1990's to describe a tax that is designed to be hidden or not obvious. One of the examples often given is funding things that should be paid for by taxation out of the National Lottery.

    Another (and one of the initial uses of the phrase) was in relation to the taxing of pension funds. The fund manager obviously noticed but the ultimate consumer (the pensioner) was often unaware.

    MickLL
     
  4. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Mick,

    Hmmmm. The National Lottery is so clearly a tax that you'd need to be extremely stupid not to realize it, and because it's voluntary, you don't have to pay it.

    Pension funds came closest but even then, you'd need to be determinedly ill informed not to notice the people who were, at the time, screaming "STEALTH TAX! STEALTH TAX!"

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  5. Sphinx

    Sphinx Well-Known Member



    Patronizing arrogant mindset? I have been the one who is "poor" and can be helped by providing this or that - never actually what I want or need but instead what people in a totally different situation think what they would want or need if they were in my position.

    As for wheelchairs you would be surprised how many people would assume just that - and get very very angry when you do not fall on their "offer of help" with endless gratitude. I dont use a chair at the moment - I have in the past and although I could go further with it than without I stopped using it the instant I could once again cover minimal distance (100 to 200 meters)

    Trust me I am no more patronizing or arrogant having been on the receiving end that the majority of people are on the supposed giving end.
     
  6. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    It's still not a phrase to describe a tax that you don't agree with which is what you first said.

    MickLL
     
  7. Sejanus.Aelianus

    Sejanus.Aelianus In the Stop Bath

    I shouldn't worry about it. I think it's reasonably clear where that description might fit.
     
  8. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Highlight: No, I wouldn't. I know it is all too common. It is, without doubt, patronizing and arrogant. But does it not occur to you that it is also patronizing and arrogant to assume, on the basis of no evidence, that I might do the same? And even more patronizing and arrogant to lecture me on something about which you know less than nothing, namely, many years (on and off) of working for the Tibetan cause at the request of the Tibetan Government in Exile?

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  9. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Mick,

    I think it is, you know. Is corporation tax described as a stealth tax? Not that I have ever seen. But it is just as "stealthy", in terms of its impact upon the general public, as the famous pension fund raid. Governments cannot easily introduce taxes without people noticing, except, as I said earlier, those who are determined to remain ignorant.

    Consider what mikeh201355 said: "another stealth tax dressed up as a socially aware policy that simply goes into the government coffers just like the Green tax does".

    This is, I suggest, the way most people use the phrase "stealth tax": as a means of attacking a tax they don't like.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  10. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    We will have to disagree.I have never heard it described in that way except by you.

    Read any of the explanations/definitions to be found all over the web. None of them support your view.

    I agree that the lottery is a stealth tax but it's not actually a tax by any normal definition.

    Not raising the tax band allowances is a stealth tax and so on.

    I'm not actually sure that the pensions raid really was a stealth tax. I gave it as an example because it was described as a stealth tax by its opponents and that was one of the first times that the phrase had been used.

    MickLL
     
  11. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Mick,

    We shall, indeed, have to agree to disagree. I've just done a quick Google and cannot see any definition that is inconsistent with mine.

    The Wikipedia entry says "The neutrality of this article is disputed" and gives the original use of the term "stealth taxes" as being the Torygraph attacking Gordon Broon, so it started out as political point-scoring and has pretty much remained a plaything of the right. It is, therefore, a political term, not an economic one, and must therefore be as open to left-wing definitions as to right-wing.

    If "Not raising the tax band allowances is a stealth tax" then so is inflation, and the definition of "stealth tax" becomes so broad as to be useless. My definition, on the other hand, suffers no such exceptions.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  12. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    How about the three above? They are the first three listed after Googling Stealth Tax.

    For once, Roger, can't you admit an error?

    MickLL
     
  13. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Mick,

    When I make errors, I admit them.

    I do not regard this as an error. As I say, I see no incompatibility. You may not care for my definition, but this does not worry me. Consider the art of political rhetoric: inventing phrases like "stealth tax" (right wing press & politicians), and then discrediting them (me, right here). The web is not the fons et origo of all knowledge and wisdom, and I am sure that there are many others who would cheerfully admit the value of my definition, even if it is completely novel, which I doubt.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  14. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    Sorry forgot the OED which says:

    A form of taxation levied in a covert or indirect manner.

    But then I know that you don't accept the OED if it doesn't suit you.

    It really doesn't matter whether it was originated as political point scoring or not. It's commonly used as I've illustrated and ,as I've said, I've never heard it used otherwise and can't find any definition that comes close to yours.

    Finally in order to agree to continue this discussion it's clear to me that we use different definitions of what a tax actually is. For clarity I believe a tax to be a compulsory levy deliberately imposed by the government. I therefore don't really accept inflation or the lottery as a true tax - but I still have some sympathy with your point about the lottery.

    MickLL
     
  15. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Mick,

    The key word is "believe".

    As for "stealth tax", ask yourself a simple question. Why would anyone use the opprobious term "stealth" in front of a tax of which they did approve? The very existence of the phrase speaks for itself: "this is a tax I don't like, or of which I disapprove".

    You're dead right about the OED, though. It's a dictionary, not an encyclopaedia, a textbook on taxation, or a political treatise: it necessarily simplifies matters. It's an invaluable guide to the past, when you're not sure what a word means. But language changes. Read the OED and you'll see that for most entries, they give the date of first use: precisely because language changes.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  16. Sejanus.Aelianus

    Sejanus.Aelianus In the Stop Bath

    Would you include the "Bedroom Tax" as a stealth tax, given that it's actually the non-payment of a benefit?
     
  17. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    Sorry Roger life is too short to dispute with you - especially as you admit to being a 'last worder'.

    As I said we will have to disagree and leave our readers to choose their own definition.

    MickLL
     
  18. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    But to the original issue, which I have mostlly missed, but I'm sure not been missed.
    It is perfectly right that providing freebies to local rags does working togs out of a job, but we amateurs aren't the only ones doing it. My son is a local newspaper news editor and frequently has to take his own snaps, or chooses to, like at the Beach Boys concert which he covered. Years ago I used to cover weekends for him when the paid togs didn't want to come in. Yes they are very much in decline and the few left have to scorch around at great speed to cover all the local events, but I think their problem is same as the typing pools full of typists and the sectretaries that used to do all the key hitting when I first checked in for work.
    When we all became able to hit keys and get a result, it wasn't long before we were expected to. There are many blind alleys you can go up in life, but it is the flexibility to get out of them that matters. There are far fewer local titles and journalists to fill them than there were even 10 years ago. As for firemen on the railway, chimney sweeps, milkmen, colour retouchers, typographers, letterpress typesetters, cinema organists....shall I go on?
     
  19. Sphinx

    Sphinx Well-Known Member

    I have actually found out slightly more about the machinations behind the scenes. Went for my standard wander yesterday to find a full scale film set up so hung around to watch that instead. Chatted to some of the other photographers there (like you do lol) and one chap was telling me about South West news that acts as photographic agency for newspapers and makes its money by selling to the nationals but drops freebies to locals. He recommended that if I were to find myself with a newsworthy picture again to use them - I will take that advice.
     
  20. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    Dear Roger,

    While not wanting to dispute any more I've been out with my camera and had time to think. Maybe we are at crossed purposes.

    May I ask a question?

    For clarification here's what you wrote and they are the words I disagreed with.

    Now here's the question. Imagine that you wrote an article and had cause to say, for example, "the chancellor introduced a stealth tax". My understanding of your later posts says that you would expect me to read that as ,"the chancellor introduced a tax with which I disagree".

    You would not expect me to infer that the tax was disguised as something else or introduced in some sort of secretive way.

    Have I understood correctly? I look forward to your answer because I'm concerned if I've got it all wrong.

    MickLL
     

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