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Has anyone mentioned Brexit?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Jimbo57, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. Jimbo57

    Jimbo57 Well-Known Member

    The oft-repeated mantra on Brexit seems to be that implementing our departure from the EU is the only way of observing a democratic decision by the British People.

    Given,

    (a) Since the referendum, three years worth of elderly people have fallen off the end of the population, and

    (b) three years worth of young people have been added to the electoral register, and

    (c) analysis of the last referendum showed that old people were more likely than young people to want to leave the EU and young people were more likely than old people to want to remain in the EU, plus

    (d) of those who voted to leave, a fair proportion may now have realised that they were misled by lack of information or even misinformation and may now have changed their minds, and that...

    (e) while those who voted to leave because of the "little Britain" nationalism or even bigotry of the UKIP mould, are unlikely to have changed their minds, hopefully those are a minority of the erstwhile Brexiteers, and...

    (f) no currently offered plan, either by Mrs May or the hard Exiteers, meets the wishes of any majority grouping.....

    Why is the idea of a fresh People's Vote or even a General Election undemocratic?

    Answers please.
     
  2. peterba

    peterba Well-Known Member

    Has anyone mentioned Brexit?

    No - I don't think it has ever been mentioned on this forum... ;) :D
     
  3. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    The real puzzle is this. If brexiters are so convinced that the whole country is behind them when it comes to their stupid, futile, self-harming project, why are they not in favour of a second referendum?

    Actually it would be the third -- remember the original one -- which makes a further mockery of their "Duh, wuh, and if a People's Vote overturns the Eternal and Ironclad Will of the British People, we could make it best of three."

    The truth is that they know they squeaked through with a tiny majority because their voters had an enormous, incoherent and often incompatible range of reasons to vote leave: austerity, wanting to give Cameron a kicking, opposition to gay marriage, senility/nostalgia, racism, gullibility, ignorance, innumeracy and plain old stupidity. OK, and a few who had thought about it, and a few disaster/vulture capitalists.

    Inevitably, the stupid ones don't like being told they're stupid. But then, stupid people seldom do.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  4. Jimbo57

    Jimbo57 Well-Known Member

    Really? I have been overseas for a while.
     
  5. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Which planet?

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  6. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Because the little englanders (against all expectations) won the vote and know for a fact they'll lose a 2nd vote.
     
  7. spinno

    spinno Well-Known Member

    Brexit
    there I've mentioned it, what's my prize?
     
  8. DaveS

    DaveS Well-Known Member

    Penury.
     
  9. spinno

    spinno Well-Known Member

    is this the word association thread?
     
  10. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Andrew,

    Of course, in the extremely unlikely event that their warped world-view prevailed a second time, we'd know that the United Kingdom is (a) beyond hope and (b) likely to stop being United quite soon. This leads to the interesting prospect of Queen Elizabeth of Scotland and Queen Elizabeth II of England being the head of state in one EU country and one non-EU.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  11. nimbus

    nimbus Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't be too certain about that. Those I know who voted leave would still do so, one would now vote remain and one remain would now vote leave.
     
    Zou likes this.
  12. daft_biker

    daft_biker Action Man!

    I don't know about undemocratic but it is poor sportsmanship and being a sore loser.

    And FWIW.....
     
    proseak likes this.
  13. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Nor am I. When I wrote "know for a fact" I should have written "have convinced themselves".
     
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  14. peterba

    peterba Well-Known Member

    I agree - I don't detect any major shift among Leave or Remain voters. However, IMO, the 12.9 million voters who didn't vote in the previous referendum would hold the key to the outcome of a further referendum.

    Of course, we won't know how this might play out, unless and until another referendum is held - but it's not unreasonable to suppose that many of those who didn't vote, were not sufficiently annoyed by EU membership to make them get out and vote.

    Whether or not those previous non-voters would actually be galvanised into action, in the event of another referendum, is anyone's guess. :confused:
     
    saxacat and Roger Hicks like this.
  15. Geren

    Geren Well-Known Member

    I know of at least three leave voters who have died since the referendum and scores of young people who have come of voting age who would vote remain. I think I read somewhere that April of this year is the offiical turning point that statistically means if only the same number of people voted again, enough old leavers would be replaced by enough new remainers to ensure Brexit wouldn't succeed in another referendum. Of course it's all just statistics and you can make statistics say what you want. Especially if you bung 'em on a bus.

    I personally don't know how the country can be made to go along with something so monumentally important on the basis of a question asked by people who didn't understand the ramifications of people who were lied to about the ramifications.
     
  16. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Andrew,

    Or -- be honest -- you know that Leavers got lucky last time and are shit-scared that now people (a) know a few facts (b) have seen that there are no good outcomes and (c) are on average were born almost 3 years later, the likelihood of their winning again is vastly diminished.

    I'd rather have "poor sportsmanship" and "sore losers" than pig ignorance, geriatric nostalgia, xenophobia and economic illiteracy. The very metaphors you choose betray a complete lack of understanding that politics isn't a game: it's serious. Treating it as a game was the route chosen by the Old Etonians who got us into this. Are you happy to be on their side?

    Too right you don't know about "undemocratic" because it isn't. And if leavers could point to a single advantage of leaving, presumably they would.

    Just in case you missed the point I made above, POLITICS ISN'T A GAME.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
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  17. AGW

    AGW Well-Known Member

    POLITICS ISN'T A GAME.....and democracy is never over.

    Graeme
     
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  18. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    I know no-one who voted leave who would be even thinking about changing their mind. Two years of being called stupid racist uneducated useful idiots for Putin (etc.) strangely hasn't won them over...
     
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  19. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    We're in Scotland, so the shifting demographic doesn't make a lot of difference. Even down south, I'm not convinced the shift is quick enough - not all oldies voted leave, not all youngsters voted remain.
     
  20. proseak

    proseak Well-Known Member

    I think there may be such a thing as a shy Remain voter; It's quite possible that many have realised what a horrorbox leaving would be, but don't want to admit it to others but would vote Remain given the chance
     
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