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D850 on the way - Official

Discussion in 'Nikon Chat' started by AndyTake2, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    I would expect Nikon to make an adaptor fully compatible with only their latest SLR lenses, AF-E, and then tell users where earlier lenses weren't compatible/usable. With AF-E lenses, anyone with a camera older than the D5 can't use them so there is already some loss of backward compatibility in the lens range. Body incompatibility with earlier lenses has been a factor since the F5, the F4 being the last camera to have a folding AI coupling.

    I am of the opinion that Nikon has chosen not to enable metering with older lenses as a deliberate policy. Though their meter coupling has always seemed a bit Heath Robinson, I never felt that other manufacturers had such a rudimentary coupling.
  2. ChrisNewman

    ChrisNewman Well-Known Member

    I’m relieved to see the “high resolution” part of the news release. When I noticed Nikon was choosing the D850 designation rather than D820, and promising “high speed”, I was concerned they might be following the D7500 route, and opting to phase out the D810 in favour of putting much of the D5 in a budget body. The D7500 has a lower resolution than the D7200, which will presumably be phased out eventually, and according to DxO, lower dynamic range, making it an inferior camera for my purposes.

    I have a D800. I’d like the D810’s improvements, especially highlight priority metering, no AA filter, and a softer mirror action, but it’s not enough of an upgrade to be worthwhile. I might be tempted by the D850. I hope it:
    • Retains separate AE-L /AF-L and AF-ON buttons (the D5, D750 and D500 all have only one).
    • Gains a joystick for positioning the focus point faster.
    • Has sufficient customization of the controls so that, if the sub-command dial is allocated to Easy Exposure Compensation, turning the main command dial will change the bias between shutter speed and aperture in the same direction in Aperture Priority as in Shutter Priority and Programmed Modes.
    • Allows quick and easy switching between stored settings, and allows auto bracketing settings to be stored, instead of needing to change Menu and Settings banks, and auto bracketing, separately.
    • Gains sensor-based image stabilization, particularly for lenses such as large aperture primes where it doesn’t seem feasible to provide lens-based stabilization.
    • Has its monitor articulated, particularly for low-level macro shots.

  3. Fishboy

    Fishboy Well-Known Member

    Well, according to the pictures here it looks like it doesn't have the buttons you want, but that it does have the joystick and articulated monitor.

    Cheers, Jeff

    PS - I'd like it to have a slightly lower all-round spec than the D810 so that I don't feel any pressure to upgrade :D
  4. ChrisNewman

    ChrisNewman Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that (especially as you had to expose yourself to upgrade temptation to look at the pictures!) Having no built-in flash would be a loss - I don’t want to have to carry my SB-910 all the time.

  5. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Not enough detail in the photographs but I welcome the deletion of built-in flash as it is a feature I have never liked, though I accept that others will be dismayed. As long as the video and other buttons can be reprogrammed to something useful the lack of separate AE lock and AF Lock buttons can be forgiven. I notice that one image has a separate AF On button and one doesn't, I wonder which it is to be. I will be interested to see what features are on the battery grip, I would require one of those.
    I doubt Nikon will introduce sensor based image stabilisation because the have been saying for many years that lens bases stabilisation is best as it can be optimised to the lens.
  6. ChrisNewman

    ChrisNewman Well-Known Member

    I think the video button is on top next to the shutter button. I'd need both AE Lock/AF Lock and AF On buttons to be where I could operate them without my index finger, ideally with my thumb. There were some comparison photos of a D810; is that were you saw the twin buttons?
    Nikon say the lens is the best component for stabilization, and that seems logical to me, but reviewers seem to believe that some Olympus cameras currently have the best stabilization, and with Micro Four Thirds they get even better stabilization by combining sensor and lens systems. But my view is that any of the current stabilization systems would be far better than none, and I don’t think Nikon provide it on any lenses faster than the 200mm F2G. I assume this isn’t because they haven’t got round to it, but because it’s not feasible to move large enough lens elements fast enough to provide stability. One lens where I miss stabilization is my Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art lens (I’d have been tempted by a Nikon alternative if it had VR). It’s superb on a tripod, but I’d like to be able to get the best out of it when hand-holding at small apertures or in poor light.

    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  7. nimbus

    nimbus Well-Known Member

    It may well be, the point about sensor based stabilization is that any lens is a stabilized, so for example that old, but sharp 300mm lens gains a new purpose without a lot of expense. Three stops equivalent stabilization isn't as good as five, but it's a helluva lot better than none!
    ChrisNewman likes this.
  8. El_Sid

    El_Sid Well-Known Member

    Very likely you are right but arguably it goes against the spirit of back compatibility inferred by the deliberate retention of the F mount. When you look at the very latest lenses with their inboard drive systems, lack of aperture rings and, now, electronically driven diaphagms it seems they have ended up at the same place Canon elected to start at 30 years back. Maybe they should have dumped the F mount years ago and saved a lot of hassle...;)
    Andrew Flannigan likes this.
  9. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    It would certainly have saved a considerable amount of messing around with the F mount over the years. Not to say that it isn't a considerable achievement to have kept essentially the same mount for nearly 60 years. I suspect the reaction to Canon switching to the EOS mount may have been one reason for carrying on with the F mount but there were other opportunities, the D1 would have been one.

    I often wonder just what proportion of Nikon users actually benefit from the backward compatibility of lenses; using a MF lens on an F4 would have actually been preferable to AF at times and focusing an early AF or AF-D lens manually isn't to be recommended. Then AF-G lenses can't be used with MF cameras except AI-S in Shutter priority and of course there is the well known issue with metering when using MF lenses on AF bodies.

    If Nikon do ditch the F mount I won't upgrade to the new one, I still have an upgrade path from the D3.
  10. Fishboy

    Fishboy Well-Known Member

    ...and somewhere in the distance I hear a small voice mutter "personally, I can't understand why they moved away from the S-mount..."

    Cheers, Jeff
  11. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    My first thought was that the S mount was a mistake; they should have gone with the Leica mount, which was screw at that time. However the Zeies bayonet was better so they should have got that right. The S mount was a bad copy of the Contax mount. There were incompatibiliies. The old Contax mount would probably have been ok for mirrorless but sadly there was no space for the mirror box and the F mount, with its ridiculously small hole was born.
  12. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    Well there's Adrian to start with.
  13. nimbus

    nimbus Well-Known Member

    I use a 24mm f2.8 AI-S on my D610 from time to time and also have a very sharp 135 f3.5.
  14. AndyTake2

    AndyTake2 Well-Known Member

    Even faster than 8FPS according to the latest over at NikonRumors.
    It will need those two card slots, and the storage /SSD manufacturers must be rubbing their hands together.

    With regard to the mega pixies and lens sharpness, I wonder if Nikon are looking at their curved sensor design to help with this? Not on the 850, we know that is a conventional design, but for the future?

    It makes sense that a curved sensor could compensate for the deficiencies (if they could be called that) of lens design. They already have at least one patent for a lens utilising a curved sensor, so perhaps this is where everything will go in future.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  15. ChrisNewman

    ChrisNewman Well-Known Member

    That would have suited me, particularly if Nikon had switched to a mount that worked in the conventional right-hand thread direction. But that’s because I had a Pentax SLR until I switched to digital - I’m grateful Pentax maintained compatibility all the while it mattered to me, and was so relieved I hadn’t chosen Minolta, Canon or Olympus for my pre-autofocus system!

  16. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Everybody says that Nikon lenses mount the wrong way but, if you have the camera on its strap with the strap round your neck, when you mount the lens you do in fact twist it the same way as you do on any other camera, with the camera facing towards you. The logic being that you want the camera facing the subject not the photographer.
  17. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Well then, I looked up some production numbers, well observed serial numbers actually, for Nikon Digital SLRs.
    I have made some assumptions; that every serial number from 1 to the highest observed was actually released, (probably unrealistic but I have accounted for the "missing" serial numbers by ignoring the missing data from newer models and specials.). That the exact number isn't relevant to the point I want to make.
    The result of my research and Excel juggling is that Nikon appear to have made some 26,000,000 DSLR camera bodies. That is not to say that that many actually made it into the hands of photographers, there will have been rejects, test specimens, demo examples, engineering sectioning models etc.
    So, back to my question, how many of the millions of Nikon DSLR camera owners actually use pre AF lenses on their cameras?
    If it is only a small percentage, say 1%, that could still mean that between 100,000 and 200,000 users would be upset if Nikon dropped the F mount. I am guessing that a proportion of users have more than one camera body.

    Next question, will Nikon drop the F mount if they launch a Full Frame mirror less camera body?
  18. ChrisNewman

    ChrisNewman Well-Known Member

    I don’t understand why you think the orientation of the camera is important regarding the handedness of lens changing. My camera is usually round my neck, with the lens pointing away, when I reverse the hood on my Nikkor or other lenses, and I find this straightforward, thanks to the right-hand thread action (an exception is my new 24-70mm f/2.8 VR, where getting the lens hood over a protective or polarising filter is very tight).

    With my digital Nikons I usually follow the advice to point the camera downwards when changing lenses, to limit the risk of dust falling in, and generally hold the camera in my left hand, with lens in the right.

    When I bought my Pentax SLR, changing lenses used much the same action as I had become familiar with for putting nuts onto screws, lids onto jars, light bulbs into sockets, and almost any other type of coupling requiring a twisting action. Almost immediately, changing lenses seemed natural, straightforward and slick.

    It’s now seven years since I switched to Nikon DSLRs, but because mounting the lens needs the action I associate with uncoupling, and vice versa, I’m still clumsy and slow changing lenses.

  19. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    4K video from the full sensor and high sensitivity suggests a lot of processing to group output from several sensor pixels for each pixel in the video frame.
    Also for high still resolution at high frame rates there is a problem moving the data off the sensor.
    Both those little difficulies may have been overcome by the use of a stacked sensor. I believe that the precedent of using a stacked sensor in a full frame camera is the Sony Alpha 9 which retails for about £4.5k, and that doesn't have the cost of a mirror mechanism!
    I would not be surprised if the initial cost of the D850 is about twice the present cost of a D810.
  20. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Simple really, with a Pentax, Canon, Sony, Minolta pointing towards you the right hand twists the lens to the right (clockwise) to fit. With a Nikon pointing away from you the right hand twists clockwise to fit a lens, essentially the same movement. Any way, I am an engineer and don't find mounting Nikon lenses unusual, some aircraft Oxygen systems have left hand threads for safety, to prevent mating oil pipes.

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