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Catalan independence

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Zou, Sep 20, 2017.

  1. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry you can't understand it. For me, we would be a Country in our own right, with obligations and benefits accruing to us, by virtue of that fact.
    Keeping it simple! ;)
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  2. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Roy,

    That's not the only thing you don't know or understand.

    (1) We are all interdependent. This is why we have treaties, international courts, etc.

    (2) Most sane people accept that it is perfectly possible to be an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY in the EU. If the UK were not an independent country, how could they leave?

    (3) Better to be an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY in the EU than "shackled" (your word) to a country that behaves as an occupying power, e.g. Spain or England. I mean, look at the vast majority of English politicians. Hence my earlier comment about federalism.


    steveandthedogs and Catriona like this.
  3. Roy5051

    Roy5051 Well-Known Member

    I knew I should never have got into this discussion...........

    One of the reasons I have not participated in this forum for some months.
  4. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Roy,

    I repeat my perpetual pleas:

    How has the EU ever harmed you personally?

    How do you think is is going to benefit anyone?

    Concrete answers please, not empty woo about "sovereignty" and "taking back control".

    Preferably, too, meaningful answers; unlike the fellow who reckoned it was the EU's fault that an American company bought an English chocolate manufacturer.


  5. P_Stoddart

    P_Stoddart Well-Known Member

    I Would say the difference with the Westminister approach to such a situation is they would simply file with the supreme court that the vote is illegal under UK law. Westminister would not send in police and tank etc. :)

    You only use force if it is a matter of serious crime involve life and property.

    The Spanish should have just allowed the vote and then declared it unlawful and non bind on the main government. :)

    Also issued warnings to official that they might face charges of abuse of office and then arrest.

    Raiding government offices looks overkill and is going to inflame the local citizens.

    Just not modern and progressive for a EU member to do.

    I would hope the EU commission would inform the Spanish government they take a dim view of such actions in the 21st Century.
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  6. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Roy,

    A further thought. Why did you choose to come back in on a subject where you are clearly out of your depth?

    For that matter, why did you VOTE on a subject where you are clearly out of your depth?

    Until you can answer the questions above, you stand condemned as clearly out of your depth by your own tacit admission.


  7. P_Stoddart

    P_Stoddart Well-Known Member

    Easy the working time directive, although the UK has a opt out many company use the 48 as a benchmark. So in the past you could earn more by working more but companies shy away from it for fear that the opt out would be lost and then cause them a crisis in there work structure.

    I know of family members who possible earning went down as the EU kept on pushing for UK opt out being dropped.

    Holiday pay another one. My understanding the directive forces employee to take 4 week a year. Now some employees had 4 weeks of paid leave in the contract not by directive. The plus was they could take two weeks leave and get the rest as additional pay which would help with cashflow ie they would work a 50 week year. But now it's a directive you can't do that anymore. You must take the leave or lose it. So you lose 2 week extra money out of your pocket.

    Peopel have lost jobs because of the single market. Example all the Ford workers of Dagenham because that work due to free movement of goods is produced abroad in other EU countries

    Was not the reason Ford built cars here instead of importing from the USA or other countries is import duties?

    But the important thing to remember is WE ARE LEAVING :)

    Unless WWIII breaks (even then we will leave LOL) it will happen and the UK will be fine. :)
  8. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    (1) YOU PERSONALLY, not someone who tells you something. Also "holiday pay" = "pay". You're saying that people should automatically be entitled to 2 weeks extra pay because they refuse to take their PAID holidays? And that employers should be encouraged to work fewer people into the ground, instead of employing more people?

    (2) You are perfectly happy with a race to the bottom, then? Zero hours, no minimum wage, no holiday pay? Sure, we can argue about how someone is "harmed", but reduced pay, holidays, etc., look quite like "harm" to me.

    (3) Not necessarily. There is still plenty of time to withdraw Article 50. When all but the stupidest and bitterest Brexiteers finally understand that THEIR living standards are going down because of the falling pound (= higher priced imports, especially fuel, priced in dollars), the relocation of jobs, the decline in tax revenues, etc., maybe some politician will have the intelligence and courage to admit that it was all a mistake.

    The important thing to remember is that WE ARE NOT ALL STUPID.


  9. P_Stoddart

    P_Stoddart Well-Known Member

    People have different performance levels, you can't have a "one size fits all". You are also assuming that everyone hates work. Some people love their job and therefore don't need 4 weeks thrust upon by busybodies in Brussels. So can benefit for that love by cashing in the extra 2 weeks :)

    The harm is losing money which you might donate charity of give to family etc. The harm is freedom of choice to do with your time and energy what you desire.

    Give you another example of harm related to photography, all dSLR etc have to stop at 29:59 of recording why?

    Because a EU directive in 2007 says if they record more than 30 minutes they video cameras and get hit with a ariff.

    Bonkers! That means the consumer gets directly affected by a silly EU directive.

    So we are independent?

    Ok if there was referendum tomorrow to bring back say hanging for terrorist and the vote was yes by UK citizens.

    Westminister can't pass the law, why? Because as a EU member we must follow their HR act which does not allow for execution of criminals.

    Now I am not pro hanging but I am pro a society as a nation deciding how it deals with serious criminals using the democratic process.

    So if the citizens of the UK by a majority say bring back hanging I would accept and respect that decision.

    I am not against Scotland breaking away from the UK, I would be sad to see it happen because we have so much history with our northern friends. The UK is strong and powerful enough to stand on her own. I am not so sure that is true of Scotland.

    Example I believe that England's GDP is 9 times larger than Scotland's.

    But some EU nations have a lower GDP compared to Scotland like Greece.

    What is interesting is Catalan GDP is higher than Scotland's at the moment I have read :)

    But if they did split from Spain it might drop 30% some reports have warned. I wonder if that is because they would be leaving EU as well.
  10. AGW

    AGW Well-Known Member

    ....because the EU is a partnership from which we benefit.....

    Roger Hicks likes this.
  11. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Exactly so which is why the EU is such a good idea. It stands for the strength of diversity. It stands for equality in difference. It stands for fairness and kindness. Leaving is about kicking someone else in the head and calling it national pride. :mad:
  12. Trannifan

    Trannifan Well-Known Member

    1) Sounds to me like a typical HMG over-interpretation, preferred own translation or overreaction to some idea that someone in Brussels floated. Either that or it's typical brexit whopper! Germany - and I've lived here for 37 years and served on a couple of works councils- has laws regarding holiday entitlements, working hours,workers representation and so on. All of these go back to the 1960s/1970s, if not even earlier(!) I have a degree of familiarity with the various laws referred to and I've never heard of the directive you refer to. My holiday pay always arrived punctually and in full in my bank account irrespective of how I divided up my holiday entitlement.

    2) No other EU country has zero-hours contracts. In any case, the problem with earning more by working longer, no matter what any directive says, is that only the taxman benefits. And of course, the notorious opt-out allows doctors and medical personnel to be forced to work excessive hours. I prefer to deal with medics who are awake and alert, not dead on their feet. In any case, what's wrong with a regulated 40/48 hour week?

    3) Like it or not we live in a so-called market economy with a certain neo-con influence, espoused and vigourously propogated by Thatcher & co. The harsh truth is therefore that if Ford-Cologne produces cars more efficiently and economically than in Dagenham or Halewood then that's life, and by the way, german wages are higher. Add to that the fact that the UK and Ireland drive on the left which means that, compared to the rest of Europe, they are niche markets and, as such, it may well that the market finds it more efficient/ cost-effective to supply from factories elsewhere in Europe - to say nothing of the reputation of the british motor industry..............

  13. Trannifan

    Trannifan Well-Known Member

    From what I've heard, the catalonian government seems to think that they can hold a referendum and, if the result is right, immediately declare UDI and automatically stay in the EU. Don't forget that , in the case of the scots, the EU told them that, as far as EU membership was concerned, they'd have to take their place at the end of the queue.......

  14. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Which part of "personally affected" didn't you understand? When have you tried to shoot movies with 30-minute single takes? When has anyone tried it? Though I suppose that the late Andy Warhol might have been interested. Indeed, which "consumers" have been affected?

    The reason for the 30-minute limit to a single take is that if there is no limit, they ARE video RECORDERS (not just cameras), and can be used to record whole movies. Now, you may disagree with tariffs on video recorders, but the example you choose smacks of desperation.

    "Giving money to charity" is again a cry of desperation. Just because something can theoretically happen, doesn't mean it will. And no, I don't assume everyone hates work. You may. I don't. I do however believe that everyone works better if they have a reasonable amount of time off and cannot be pressured into working more. Lynn deals with all this pretty well.

    "Now I am not pro hanging but..." You are however perfectly happy to support hanging as long as the majority support it. In other words, you have no principles. And, as usual when you are blinded by the red mist that descends upon you when discussing the EU, you fail to understand what you are talking about. Are you even aware that the Council of Europe is not the same thing as the EU, and that it was founded in 1949? Presumably not: you just automatically start frothing at the mouth when you see the word "Europe".

    Protocol 6 of ETS 114 had to be RATIFIED by individual, INDEPENDENT countries (sorry to use so many capital letters, but I'm trying to help you understand), many of whom are not even EU members. It wasn't the wicked, evil EU that stopped people killing their own citizens. It was individual, INDEPENDENT countries RATIFYING THE TREATY. They did this either because they believed that the death penalty was inherently wrong or because they didn't want to look primitive.

    But of course it's easier to believe what the Daily Mail tells you, or what you heard from some bloke in the pub, than to make any attempt to inform yourself.


    steveandthedogs likes this.
  15. SqueamishOssifrage

    SqueamishOssifrage Well-Known Member

    I hate to disillusion you, but the 29'59" limit on digital camera recording is a WTO specification, and the EU can do bugger all about it.
    Trannifan, LesleySM, DaveM399 and 2 others like this.
  16. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Damn! You've been doing your research again! But you should know that kippers and Brexiteers can't handle stuff like that. You know what I mean: facts. An admittedly cursory reading suggests that you are right and that P_Stoddart is (once again) woefully under-informed.

    True, the WTO is under pressure to change the standard, but as you point out, this does not affect the fact that it is a WTO standard.

    I find it interesting that many Brexiteers love to claim that they are neither stupid nor ignorant, before going on to demonstrate that they are either one or the other, and sometimes both. The claim that Remainers are stupid or ignorant is however seldom adduced by Brexiteers, possibly because rather fewer of us are.


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  17. SqueamishOssifrage

    SqueamishOssifrage Well-Known Member

    Actually, I was already aware of it, as I had heard about the pressure to change it some time ago, but even after five years there has been no change. Holding of breath not recommended.

    Of course, the ultimate irony is that whatever Brexit deal the UK ends up with, we still won't be able to change it, firstly because we will either be in the EU Customs Union, or be operating under WTO rules, and secondly, I doubt camera manufacturers would produce a separate model for the UK - particularly as the UKĀ£ will be so worthless, nobody will be able to afford one.
    Trannifan and steveandthedogs like this.
  18. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    *Quietly walks away from thread which has gone down the brexit drainhole*

    Unless anyone wants to stick to the topic, of course? ;) :rolleyes:
    Scphoto and Footloose like this.
  19. Footloose

    Footloose Well-Known Member

  20. SqueamishOssifrage

    SqueamishOssifrage Well-Known Member

    Don't you know the old saying? 'All roads lead to the treaty of Rome'. :D

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