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Catalan independence

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Zou, Sep 20, 2017.

  1. Zou

    Zou Well-Known Member

    Quite surprised at the lengths the Spanish government has been going to in order to stop the referendum. Civil guards raiding premises, tanks on the streets and heavy handed threats aplenty.

    Actually, 'surprised' isn't the right word at all. :(
     
  2. miked

    miked Well-Known Member

    From the very heated posts of some folk both on here and other sites, it might also be true to say they wouldn't have minded tanks,troops and heavy handed threats out on British streets 23rd June last year.:oops:
     
  3. SqueamishOssifrage

    SqueamishOssifrage Well-Known Member

    I try to keep out of political type of threads, but this is something that gets my ire up - big time (or bigly if that's your thing). I really believe in the right of self-determination for all societies - even Scotland :D - although I may question the wisdom of making such a move. If the Catalans want to vote on independence, they should be allowed to do so. I see their situation as rather the same as the Milanese - they do all the work and the rest of the country spends the proceeds thereof - only this time it is a different ethnic group with their own culture and language.

    By the way, if you think the Spanish authorities are over the top in their reaction, wait until you see what Iraq, Iran and Turkey do over the Iraqi Kurdish independence referendum. I have spent time in both Erbil and Kirkuk, and there are some very tough folks up there - and the greatest Islamic warrior, An-Nasir Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub, otherwise known as Saladin, was a Kurd, not an Arab.

    Interesting times.
     
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  4. Trannifan

    Trannifan Well-Known Member

    Well yes but the problem is that the spanish constitution apparently specifies that Spain as an entirety must vote and the question is then, "To play by the rules or not?" What would the reaction in the UK be if, say, Scotland held an independance referendum or the brexit referendum had been held without the necessary approval from HMG?

    Lynn
     
  5. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    Why necessary?
    If they are doing such a good job with the whole of the UK. then they have nothing to fear.
    Excuse me whilst I try to wriggle out from under the thumb...
     
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  6. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member


    They did - 18 September 2014
     
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  7. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    In case you hadn't noticed, HMG sanctioned this - that was Lynn's point.
    Mine is - why is this necessary?
    Good luck to Catalan - and Kurdistan.
     
    Zou likes this.
  8. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    Because, apparently, it's the law (although some parties disagree).

    MickLL
     
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  9. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member


    Actually I didn't. Sorreee :(
     
  10. Lost_In_France

    Lost_In_France Well-Known Member

    Catalonia is the 'cash cow' of Spain. No way the government is going to let go of its major source of revenue.
     
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  11. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    Precisely!
     
  12. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    But laws are based on certain premises and justifications, surely? So why the necessity for a ban? It seems rather feudal to me.
    Yes, I'm aware it is part of the constitution, but to me, these things should be open to challenge - and downright ignoring them!
     
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  13. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Mike,

    Eh? I can't quite understand what you're trying to say. The referendum was instigated by the government, incompetent fools though they were. Who would send the tanks out to do what?

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  14. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Then again, the farmers do all the work -- growing the food without which no-one can survive -- and the Milanese, Londoners, etc., just eat it.

    Trying to set one part of the country against another is classic Tory divide-and-rule: surely you are not trying to do that.

    My own ideal is that power moves simultaneously upwards, to a federal European government, and downwards, to regions -- even to regions as small as Cornwall, never mind Catalunya. As soon as you have the mentality that everyone is sponging off you, you have set the stage for demagoguery, greed, arrogance, nationalism and indeed war.

    Note to Brexiteers: before you reply, look up "federal" and reflect upon Europe as a whole. What are the advantages of the older (and substantially accidental) states such as France, Germany, the so-called UK, and so forth? They are easily and commonly used as excuses for one region -- even nation -- to try to tell the other regions/nations in the state how to behave. They have no-one's interests at heart but those of their dominant region(s). Most aren't even that old: a few hundred years, at most.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  15. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    Of course laws can and should be challenged.

    I happen to think that laws (however much you don't like them) should not be ignored - we are not allowed to even ignore the 'laws' of this site :(.
    I also think that countries cannot ignore laws - even if there's a case for individuals doing so.

    I'm not going down the route of explaining those opinions - mostly the explanations are obvious anyway.

    Finally I've skimmed the thread and can't understand your use of the word 'ban' (unless it's been used by my 'ignored member').

    MickLL
     
  16. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    Ban was perhaps an inappropriate word. By implication though the Scottish Parliament cannot hold a referendum without the permission of the UK Goverment. My shorthand way of saying that was to use the word ban. However, it is the case, is it not?
     
  17. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    It does appear to be the case.

    The devolved powers effectively prevent the Scottish Government enacting laws that are in the realm of the 'reserved matters'. As far as I can tell (and remember my expertise in this area is VERY limited) most authorities, Including the house of Lords, believe that a referendum impinges on those reserved powers (for example the make up of the Union) and is therefore outwith the powers of the Scottish Parliament.

    The UK Govt and the Scottish Govt got around this difficulty by making a section 30 amendment previously which temporarily lifted the restrictions.

    There are authorities that disagree with the above - but when I did (very limited) research some time ago their arguments seemed to me to be naive and wrong. For example they said that the referendum bill was entitled something along the lines "to seek the views of the people ......" and therefore had nothing to do with the composition of the Union. That seemed to me to be wrong - we all know what the purpose of the referendum really was - to break up the Union!!!.

    Anyway I'm no expert . My reading on the subject was long ago. I'm old and forgetful and no doubt much of the above is simplistic and it may even be wrong - but I don't think so. I'm sure that someone more knowledgeable will pull it apart .

    MickLL
     
  18. miked

    miked Well-Known Member

    Tongue-in-cheek, I was suggesting that, had they been aware of the potential for a 'Yes' vote, a fair number of citizens would have preferred positive intervention to derail the Brexit vote which was about to occur.....Ah well, the way Kim Jong Un and Donald the Trump are conducting diplomacy, we may yet wake up one morning to tanks on the streets..
     
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  19. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    About the only thing backing up the statement that it was "to seek the views of the people ...' is that even had the Yes vote (for leaving the Union) been the majority vote, there would have been many more hoops to go through to make it a reality.
     
  20. Roy5051

    Roy5051 Well-Known Member

    Bit like Brexit, then; so many hoops to jump through before 2019.

    What I cannot understand, with both Catalonia and Scotland, is why would they want independence from the current setup, only to be then shackled to a much larger setup, i.e. the EU? This is especially true of Scotland, where the devolved government wants independence from the UK, but still wants to stay in the EU. To me, that is not independence. Surely, "independence" means standing on your own, and not being shackled to any other country? At least the UK government really wants "independence" from the EU.

    I must admit to not knowing whether Catalonia still wants to be an EU member or not.
     

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