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But who WOULD be the next PM...??

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by dangie, Oct 6, 2017.

  1. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    Suffficent people change their minds in elections, for the results to be in doubt.

    However during many years working in local party politics and marking up electrol rolls. What you do find is that many people always vote and many people never do. So most effort is put into the actual voters and to the new names on the roll.
    The party tellers role out side polling stations is important for this reason alone. As you have no idea how they voted what ever they may indicate.

    Who votes, always comes out of much the same pool. How they vote does change. Even if their declared party idenntity stays the same.
     
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  2. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member


    Then you must move in rarified circles. In any case I think you're missing the crucial difference between written and spoken communication. Even on a telephone you can pick up clues as to the other person's feelings and unless you suffer from a serious degree of Asperger Syndrome you'll respond to them. In written communication there are only the words on the page. This has always been a problem. In the days of magazine and newspaper correspondence the letter editors had to "modify" much of what was printed to prevent the paper bursting into flames. I guess that's the origin of the internet term "flame wars". When someone uses a term like "nutter" their intention is often harmless but they've forgotten their audience see only the word - not the smile that would go with it in a face to face conversation.
     
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  3. steveandthedogs

    steveandthedogs Well-Known Member

    Which is precisely why people should take more care when they write something.

    S
     
    Andrew Flannigan likes this.
  4. SXH

    SXH Well-Known Member

    Do they actually change their minds, or do they have a 'wants list' and change their vote based on that?
     
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  5. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member


    Nail,head,on,hit.

    I personally think that the sort of considered rudeness that we sometimes see here demeans the attacker rather more than the attacked.

    To Andrew,
    No I don't move in rarefied circles - just considerate and polite ones. We have respect for each other and conduct ourselves accordingly. I have a friend who is a creationist (I've mentioned her before). I cannot understand, I can't begin to comprehend, how she is capable of holding that view but she does and we have lively discussion. I would never dream of being rude to her by calling her names than I would dream of espousing her beliefs. IMHO it's how civilized society works.



    MickLL
     
    SqueamishOssifrage likes this.
  6. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Alternatively, a lot of the demonstrations you dismiss as "leftist" were attended by those who paid some attention to what was going on in the world around them, and wanted a better society, instead of completely lacking imagination and/or saying "I'm all right, Jack".

    Also, how are you defining "real work"?

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    Zou and Trannifan like this.
  7. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    There's also the question of how people change their minds. It's rarely a question of being suddenly persuaded by a single brilliant argument. Rather, it's years of seeing how things really work, and how reality and rhetoric compare. I moved a long way to the left in my 30s when I went to live in the United States and saw how a dog-eat-dog right wing society really worked.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  8. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Well, yes. Think about it. This is simply a tautology, written with a right-wing bias. Try rephrasing it as "Decent socially responsible policies tend to appeal to decent socially responsible people."

    You might also care to add, " "Decent socially responsible policies tend to be written off as touchy-feely lefty by the right".

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    Zou, Trannifan, willie45 and 2 others like this.
  9. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    I can't help feeling that you missed my point entirely. It's not that people posting here are uncivilised. Typing or writing is a difficult skill for many people. They might be perfectly civilised in a face to face conversation but not good at presenting their thoughts politely in writing. Of course there are a few of the trollish persuasion but I think they are a small minority. However another point is that many people have become blunter in face to face conversation than when I was young and I think you'll find that a large minority if not a small majority would fail your "civilised behaviour" test.
     
    Terrywoodenpic likes this.
  10. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    Problem is if you allow people who have views that undermine the very basis of a civilised society - racism, for example - to go unchallenged, then you are allowing that society to be undermined, What is going wrong with this country now is very similar to what happened in Nazi Germany in the 30s - extremist views are being allowed to become mainstream by not challenging them sufficiently robustly. So Mick, I believe you are completely and utterly wrong on this; it is ESSENTIAL to challenge extremism of all flavours to allow civilised society to continue; people must not be allowed to be comfortable with their extremist views. If one doesn't challenge extemist beliefs, one is complicit in their spreading.
     
    Zou, saxacat, Learning and 2 others like this.
  11. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    From a political point of view it is not that important why they change their votes. What is important is being able to to target your efforts on those that "Might" change their views amongst those that vote.

    People can chenge their mind as much as they like if they don't actually vote.

    On the other hand For some one who votes for a different party, for any reason, is easier to get to do it again.
    That is why the cumulative effect of workers on the ground, and constant propaganda is so effective. in taking over complete areas.

    There is a section of society that is easily bought by promises, and they exist on all side of the political spectrum. You can promise them what ever you like and they will vote the best offer.
    They have no interest in politics and are solely swayed by short term self interest.
     
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  12. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    Where did that come from?

    If I were to be rude (as an example of what I mean) I would question your reading skills, ability to comprehend and your general intelligence - but I won't do any of that. Instead I'll apologise for not being clear enough. I didn't say and certainly didn't mean that offensive views should remain unchallenged. I'm not completely and utterly wrong - or at least if I am then so are you - because I'm 100% on your side. No question.

    The thrust of my argument is that too many of these threads end up with gratuitously offensive remarks and that (in my experience at least) doesn't happen in 'real life'. But I think that you know what I meant. My use of the word racist was a reference to Brexiteers being labelled , willy nilly, as unintelligent and racist. Something that you know has happened on this forum.

    Then for Andrew. I agree with many of your comments but a high proportion of posters here seem to be not only very intelligent but perfectly capable of writing polite English. Your other point (about society becoming more blunt) may be correct. I hadn't thought about it but now will.

    MickLL
     
  13. peterba

    peterba Well-Known Member

    I don't disagree with the drift of this, Mick, but it was point 1 in your earlier post (#129) which prompted my subsequent post. It (point 1) reads - to me, at least - as though a debate is not worth having unless someone changes his/her mind. Perhaps I've misconstrued that, but anyway, I don't think there's any great divergence between our viewpoints on this. Better yet, we've haven't resorted to any 'hostilities' during the discussion! :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  14. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    Don't jinx it! The bombers could be revving up at this very moment.

    Panasonic GM5_black 8GB 07 _1040747.JPG
     
    RovingMike likes this.
  15. Benchista

    Benchista Which Tyler

    Well you could do, but I'm fairly confident I'm more than comfortable in those particular areas against pretty much all comers.


    I should hope so too. All the evidence suggests that they are, or at least xenophobic and/or unintelligent. Nobody, but nobody, has come up with one intelligent reason for Brexit. Not one. It's abundantly clear that the country will be much worse off for many years after Brexit - people who think that's a price worth paying to reduce immigration are what, then? Any alternative to unintelligent and/or xenophobic? Misled, for sure, but they can't have been that bright if they didn't spot it happening, can they? There was plenty of evidence out there that they chose to ignore. Sorry, but I struggle to see how that isn't unintelligent. Voting Leave wasn't a perfectly acceptable thing to do, it was a vote to destroy the NHS, to destroy much of what remains of our industry, and to sentence so many people to poverty - unless we stay in the single market, in which case there was no point leaving in the first place. The whole thing is stupid. And the most ridiculous thing of all is that it's those who voted for Brexit that will suffer the most. Now tell me in what way that vote was NOT unintelligent?
     
  16. MickLL

    MickLL Well-Known Member

    Wow - didn't mean to press that button. :(

    What did the man say? Calm down Mr Barraclough!

    Sorry.

    MickLL
     
  17. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member


    Didn't I warn you? :cool:
     
  18. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Mick,

    Not "willy nilly", no. No doubt there were those who intelligently and carefully considered Brexit and still (in my view inexplicably) voted for it. Even the most fervent Remainers admit that. But where would the Leave vote have been without the thick racists? And who forms the equivalent group among "stay" voters?

    Nor should we ignore the thin skinned who have no stomach for anything but the most genteel debate, and who are excessively eager to define "genteel". It's another classic declension: I am robust; thou art tactless; he, she or it is a rude bar steward.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  19. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Well-Known Member

    Loooks like brexit is doing fo vauxhall now.
    The French are hadly likely to put more money into it, after their latest cuts at the plant.
     
    steveandthedogs likes this.
  20. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    They only have to produce profitably and to the right standard. Why is that so hard? Does anything deserve to exist if it can't do that? You can't start subsidising in a competitive market, look at the trouble Bombardier is in now.
     

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