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Assisted suicide

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Roger Hicks, Aug 26, 2017.

  1. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    Oh Mark.
    You teach us all a lesson in thankfulness for what we've got. Well, you teach me anyway. My aches and pains and frustrations are what you would want for yourself.

    I'm so sorry you have to go through all that you have. I wish for a pain-free time for you in the future.

    That's all I can say.
    Best wishes from me.

    Kate
     
    Craig20264, RogerMac and EightBitTony like this.
  2. Learning

    Learning Ethelred the Ill-Named

    I do know doctors personally. One out of many was a bit iffy. I avoid her.
    I would not make the taunts about a legal Dr Shipman. Some people would do so. I am actually on the same side as you on the topic being discussed.
    ""Right wing" because the right tends (a) to think the worst of people other than themselves and (b) to be very authoritarian." The fervent left wing are just as bad as the fervent right wing on those qualities. I am right wing, not fervent right wing, nor extreme far right. Where do you stand?
    "Incidentally it's euthanasia not euphanasia." Thanks for the correction. Although I think that my meaning was clear I do agree that spelling matters.
     
  3. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    So where did hanging go and why?
     
  4. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    You really consider the majority are pro hanging?
     
  5. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    The only way we can find out is if we hold a binding referendum and I can't imagine that will happen any time soon.
     
    Catriona likes this.
  6. SXH

    SXH Well-Known Member

    It may depend on when you ask them.

    Most of the time, probably ambivalent, especially when you give them info on miscarriages of justice and so on. After a particularly unpleasant case (involving children or a terrorist outrage), emotion takes over and probably 'yes'.

    Then there are the extreme right wing hang 'em and flog 'em brigade...
     
    Catriona likes this.
  7. steveandthedogs

    steveandthedogs Well-Known Member

    I think that at the time of the vote, the majority were in favour of hanging, the MP's voted to stop it. For once, they were ahead of public opinion.

    S
     
  8. Andrew Flannigan

    Andrew Flannigan Well-Known Member

    You added incorrect punctuation there. It should have read "the majority were in favour of hanging the MPs." :cool:
     
  9. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Mark,

    Not only do I respect your choice: I greatly admire it. All I am saying is that it is not the same for everyone. When they were dying, both my mother and my father expressed a wish to hasten the end: there were NOT going to be "better days in the future". In my mother's case, all routes had been tried (bear in mind this was over 40 years ago) and in my father's case he was 88. My mother asked for an overdose. The doctor said he would comply. He lied. She lived for many more weeks in grotesque pain. My father was effectively on the "Liverpool Care Pathway": starvation and dehydration. Is that more humane than a massive belt of pain killer?

    Frances and I have only each other; her nephew Dane; and our (adopted) daughter Aditi. Our parents are dead: the holes we leave in others' lives will be tolerable, even in the worst cases. They have to be. I speak from hard experience, having lost my mother when I was 23 and she was 44. We get over people dying. We can hardly do otherwise. Neither Dane nor Aditi would prefer to see us suffer "for their sake", and we love each other enough that the other's welfare is more important than our own.

    You say you're a fighter, and that you'll keep up the fight until there is no more energy left. As I say, I admire that. But some people aren't fighters, and have no great energy for the sort of thing you describe. This is not a moral question. To turn it into one merely adds to the pressure on those who just want to turn their faces to the wall, and makes life worse for them.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    John Farrell likes this.
  10. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    There you go again, thinking the worst of people. I suppose that if you read the Daily Mail assiduously you could probably find people loathsome to make the taunts you describe. But can we really make policy based on a handful of the nastiest people available? The sort of people who call refugees "cockroaches".

    Where do I stand politically? Well, I joined the Young Liberals when I was 16 any my politics have not changed much in the 50+ years since, though the stances of the parties have. Even my brother switched to the Liberal Democrats at about 60, after decades as a Tory supporter. Both he and I could support "One Nation" Toryism, but that was slaughtered by Maggie Thacher. I find it hard to see how anyone can support rising inequality, declining public services and the highest prison populations in Europe (per capita and possibly even in absolute terms) on the back of a blind, ill-informed adherence to a discredited economic model.

    You might also be interested in comment 3 on the note about assisted suicide on my Facebook page, on the thread I started on August 26th. It's from a doctor. Who is also my sister-in-law: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100013543868568

    There's also an excellent piece by Cat Milne on her father's death, early in the replies to the same piece. It can also be found at https://www.facebook.com/notes/cat-milne/dying-well-or-dying-badly/227492697279214/?hc_location=ufi

    Cheers,

    R.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  11. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    Well "ahead of" is in many cases a euphemism for in disagreement with. I don't know how they would vote now, but the abolition had nothing whatever to do with a democratic decision. It was entirely political.
     
    Roger Hicks likes this.
  12. RovingMike

    RovingMike Crucifixion's a doddle...

    And they do suffer considerably more pain than those conditions imply, with no chance of remission. I too have been to the brink and back with peritonitis and viral pericarditis, but they are also not in the same league of interminable suffering as some have to endure.
     
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  13. steveandthedogs

    steveandthedogs Well-Known Member

    I think now it is in favour of not hanging.
    As I am, though I would make an exception for certain politicians.

    S
     
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  14. Mark101

    Mark101 Well-Known Member

    Hi Roger,

    Thanks for your kind words and I do respect your views, as indeed do I respect all views from individuals.

    My only concern is that in places like the Netherlands, where taking ones life in a medical sense with aid is accepted, has led to cases of teenagers ending their lives due to such simple complaints as endless ear ache or mental health issues with increasing numbers. Once the flood gates are open anything can and does happen, as they found out to their cost in Australia's N.T. and there are strong cases of suspected coercion in many countries where this is legal.

    just a sample ......

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rp-increase-in-people-choosing-euthanasia-du/
    https://www.usnews.com/news/news/ar...d-for-45-percent-of-deaths-in-the-netherlands
    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/any-a...uld-be-too-easy-to-abuse-20150525-gh9j28.html
     
    Catriona likes this.
  15. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Well-Known Member

    Dear Mark,

    You speak of "flood gates", which strikes me as more than a trifle alarmist, especially with reference to the total of FOUR assisted suicides in Australia's Northern Territory during the YEAR or so that the act was in force..

    I think I addressed realistic concerns in the original piece, and much of what you say is whataboutery: "strong cases of suspected coercion" is an easy phrase for anyone to bandy about, because there have been no prosecutions. Why not? Perhaps because those with the "strong suspicions" are anti-suicide.

    In the United States, almost two thirds of the much vaunted gun death figures are suicides, but they're pretty messy. Suicide is quite popular -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate -- so why does it have to be demonized? Belgium is 23rd in the link given, with 16.1 suicides per 100,000 people, Even Fox News, not normally noted for non-hysterical coverage of anything, has difficulty in whipping up much against Belgian suicide law, though the Mail does its best.

    My arguments are based on what is happening now, not on what might happen in the sometimes overheated imaginations of those who oppose the right to die peacefully and with dignity, No doubt some die prematurely who might not, but many more are spared long and painful deaths or the need to leave their mutilated bodies for their loved ones to find. And who is anyone to say to someone, of that person's future death, "I know better than you do in every possible circumstance"?

    Cheers,

    R.
     
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  16. Mark101

    Mark101 Well-Known Member

    Thanks Kate,

    I'm nobody special and with my fibromyalgia pain cancer related procedures tends to be amplified. The Doctor almost fell over when I was having my Hickman Line fitted. The anaesthetic injection felt like I was being cut into with an old blunt knife and my my reaction was extreme. I see pain as a challenge these days and something to be beaten, perhaps akin to being a punch drunk boxer that enjoys the pain .
     
    Catriona likes this.
  17. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    At a very minor level, my pains don't stop me doing most things I want to. The only time it is a problem is when I get my BP measured. It actually hurts me a lot getting that cuff on my upper arm. I get a lot of upper arm pain and as soon as that cuff inflates, I'm gritting my teeth. I'm sure that's why the readings shoot up! I'm due to go back again, but haven't had the guts to make an appointment yet.

    Good to see you here again Mark. Respect from me!

    Kate
     
  18. Mark101

    Mark101 Well-Known Member

    Try to find a doctor with an old hand pump BP cuff, they are still about and they used them on the ward in Addenbrooke's for the very reason you stated. Or, how about buying your old antique model ? Take it from me, they are kinder to the arm,

    Here is an example: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blood-Pre...734488?hash=item4d6083d5d8:g:XkEAAOSwzzZZhGuw

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blood-Pre...780639?hash=item237b32c6df:g:zZ8AAOSw2xRYdNMa
     
    Catriona likes this.
  19. Catriona

    Catriona Well-Known Member

    Thank you! I agree. They take away the anticipation too - and the time the auto one takes to get there. As it climbs, so does my pain and BP. I'll mention it to the doctor when I go.
     

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