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AP has a result...

Discussion in 'News - Discussion' started by Benchista, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    Neill again, there is a difference between not liking something or seeing that it's worthless junk.

    Anyway, it seems that I have said all I intend to on this matter.
  2. Clive

    Clive Well-Known Member

    I see where you are coming from, Neil, but I guess I just don't demonstrate or accept the restraint and restrictions to which you refer. I think it is anyone's gift to declare that something is 'rubbish', and I would not presume to judge between the validity of that opinion whether it was from the President of the RA or from the bloke down the road. It is an opinion, no more than that.
  3. TimF

    TimF With as stony a stare as ever Lord Reith could hav

    .... and John Lennon's teachers used to tell him he would never amount to anything. We should be careful not to deal in absolute judgements I think.
  4. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    Neill, after having a good, dreamless sleep, I woke up this morning & it still bothered me that you cannot accept the fact that I 'dared' to call the stuff worthless garbage. So, although I'd said that I had nothing more to say on the subject, I just couldn't let it go there.

    You, yourself, have said a number of times throughout this thread that you think it is carp. My goodness, if that's not setting yourself up in judgement, what is? Every time we pass an opinion here or anywhere else, no matter what that opinion, we've set ourselves up in judgement. The big question is do we say aloud what we really feel or do we keep it bottled-up inside & just mumble the required platitudes to make everybody happy?

    So it seems that what really disturbs you is, not the fact that it is garbage, but the fact that I came straight out & said it.

    Don't you think it is rather sad that even though you may believe something is not good, in fact it is carp, you are reluctant to say it out aloud. It's not arogance to defend what you believe in. It's more of wanting to keep one's standards & self-respect at a certain level.

    I will not keep my mouth shut at what I believe is an insult to my intelligence. I will not keep quiet so as to spare 'hurting someone elses feelings' when I feel that by doing what they have done & telling me it is right & good, they have 'hurt my feelings' and attacked my artistic integrity.

    I will not be hypocritically politically correct.

    And getting back to the original title of this thread, yes, I believe in & fully support AP in their standing up and defending this attack on our intelligence.
  5. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    Why Tim, is it because we're afraid to say "I'm sorry, I was wrong & made a mistake."?
  6. ncmoody

    ncmoody Well-Known Member

    Morning Seymour.

    It is obvious to me that you are a man of integrety and I think we will have to agree to differ on the larger issue particulaly as we agree as to the poor aesthetic quality of the work.
    You seem to be happy passing judgement on artistic things, I do not. It probably comes from a difference in culture. Earlier you said you had an arts training whereas mine is in the sciences. That has left me with an unease in considering my opinions to to be any more than that, opinions, unless I can back it up with fact.

  7. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    A very wet morning here, Neill, :)

    Yes perhaps it is our different backgrounds which lead to our differences. The Arts are all about emotions & feelings & expressing them while the Sciences are all about facts.

    So let's leave this where it is. Enough said ;)

    In fact, another interesting, not exactly related to 'our' discussion, point cropped up in this thread & I'm just debating with myself on when to start the ball rolling on that :D :D

    Have a great day!
  8. Clive

    Clive Well-Known Member

    Well, I live in a part of the UK described as "sodden and unkind" by Hillaire Beloc. He didn't pull his punches.

    And neither did one of my great heroes, John Betjeman, with his opinions on Slough
  9. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    I am with Neill on this, despite 30 plus years of photography, I really am not qualified to judge beyond "I don't like it" and "I don't get it". However I do think that a major portrait prize should be looking for something involving and attention grabbing rather than "Snaps".

    If others more qualified want to use stronger language, fine, I respect your opinion but I don't have to agree with it.
  10. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    Good Morning Geoff :D :D

    That's fine & I see you come from the 'science' branch of the family too ;)

    Neill hit on a very valid point here concerning the way our backgrounds have influenced our behaviour.
  11. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    Morning Seymour, I think you are right to defend your opinion and honest to say it aloud but, like Neill, I come from the sciences and if I can't back up what I want say with facts so I won't say it.

    I am with Betjeman on Slough though.
  12. Clive

    Clive Well-Known Member

    Indeed, Seymour.

    I do just wonder whether the Citibank/Kobal/Schweppes format is copying Channel 4 Television's aims when they took over the Turner Prize which was floundering at the time.

    Channel 4's self-stated policy was to produce "controversy and publicity".

    Well, by the coverage received, they have done it!
  13. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    :eek: :) ;)
  14. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    Certainly Clive,

    As I mentioned a number of times it's all about money! Publicity = Profit.

    Thus I feel that the Arts are being prostituted and it makes my blood boil, especially when we're sold "garbage" :mad:
  15. TimF

    TimF With as stony a stare as ever Lord Reith could hav

    Not at all, Seymour. There is however, a world of difference between saying, "I think this is crap", and what you say in the quote at top, ie, "seeing that it's worthless junk". You actually make the point yourself in that very quote. The first is an opinion, and the second is IMO, an absolute statement with no room for discussion.

    It brought sad reminders to me of the arguing stance of Michael Scarpitti (who 'graced' us briefly here with his prescence as Saturn). He took the view of "I am indisputably right, how dare you question me", and its not something I wish to see here.

  16. Clive

    Clive Well-Known Member

    Come back Roger Scruton: all is forgiven ;)
  17. TimF

    TimF With as stony a stare as ever Lord Reith could hav

    Funnily enough, Scruton seems to be admired by Scarpitti. AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!! ;)
  18. Clive

    Clive Well-Known Member

    That fits! ;)
  19. sey

    sey Well-Known Member

    Tim I'm not afraid to say I was wrong, I'm sorry, if it is shown & I am convinced otherwise. Why, this forum has come pretty close to selling me on Digital & if that isn't close to an admission of maybe being wrong, what is :)

    This just happened to be a subject that touched a very raw nerve & is something I feel very strongly about (as you may have noticed ;))

    The 'absolute statement' was dicussed & the subject, I believe, amicably closed.

    It pains me to be compared to Michael Scarpitti, because to me his intent was simply to mislead & destroy & I think by now you know me well enough to realise that when Seymour gets going about something he cares about he'll defend it pretty strongly.
  20. GeoffR

    GeoffR Well-Known Member

    I find it amazing what a misplaced punctuation mark can cause.

    Seymour, I actuall think that using someone else's art purely for profit is wrong. If a company endows a prize it should accept that it may not get much publicity out of it, in the way that few ever realised that British Airways supported the Natural History Museum. I do however believe that artists should make a reasonable living and that will sometimes mean doing work purely for profit.

    Passing off snapshots as art is another matter entirely.

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