What would I lose?

[attack_donut]

Here where I live, there is a large chain of camera stores called "Ritz Camera", and they used to have some awesome selections of film for very reasonable amounts of money.

Apparently Ritz is delaring (on a nationwide scale) bankruptcy, and suddenly the Ritzs are closing left and right.

I've been a huge fan of Ilford XP2 Super for my black and white through my Nikon N4004.

Now it's nearly impossible to get the film. Another local camera shop told me I could use standard colour film, and just have them process it as Black and White.

I've not heard of this option before, and I'm curious what I'd lose if done this way, over using real Black and White film...

Thanks

[taxor]

I'm not sure how they'd do this. But the orange mask on standard colour neg produces horrible flat results when printed onto black & white paper. If you bump up the contrast to compensate, you get an apparent increase in grain size. The tonal rendition is also crap. I'm also not sure what they mean by processing a colour film as black & white. Do they mean a colour neg film in black & white chemistry? Can't see that producing acceptable results. Are you sure you can't get XP2? What about 7dayshop? If they haven't got it, what about Silverprint? I'm sure you must be able to get it somewhere unless Ilford have discontinued it (which I'm sure they haven't). Regards, T.

[swanseadave]

XP2 available post free here
NB other suppliers are available.

[Manofolympus]

I think they intend to develop the film in a plain B+W developer rather than a c-41 one. This will give a plain silver image as there are no reactions with the colour couplers. ASA rating and dev time will require some guesswork (cue for someone to say I've done it!) but you will end up with an orange masked neg of poorer quality than conventional B+W with serious home printing probs. Whether it would then be possible to get machine prints done to get round the mask I don't know-I would guess the presence of silver in the image would cause problems. Kodak and Fujis versions of C41 B+W film also have the orange mask to aid in getting neutral machine prints.
Both 7day shop and Ilfords stock availability list say XP2 is freely in stock so I think you just need to order online to get good prices

[ermintrude]

I think they intend to develop the film in a plain B+W developer rather than a c-41 one. This will give a plain silver image as there are no reactions with the colour couplers. ASA rating and dev time will require some guesswork (cue for someone to say I've done it!) but you will end up with an orange masked neg of poorer quality than conventional B+W with serious home printing probs. Whether it would then be possible to get machine prints done to get round the mask I don't know-I would guess the presence of silver in the image would cause problems. Kodak and Fujis versions of C41 B+W film also have the orange mask to aid in getting neutral machine prints.
Both 7day shop and Ilfords stock availability list say XP2 is freely in stock so I think you just need to order online to get good prices

All you get if you ask a lab to dev colour film as B&W is a normal dev of the neg in C41, but it will either be printed on B&W paper (which few of them do any more and will probably charge more for) or more likely they will just alter the settings on their processor to print as B&W which unless it is done very accurately inevitably ends up with a colour cast. If you have a lab you get along well with who know you, will fiddle around with settings for you and can reliably produce the same results, fine. Otherwise I wouldnt touch it with a barge pole.

[Manofolympus]

To properly print colour negative film onto B+W paper requires panchromatic paper which, as far as I know, isn't available any longer (waits for inevitable "oh yes it is"!). The few times I have seen the results they weren't very impressive. Using graded paper gives very flat prints with strange tonal reproduction. Multigrade is impossible since the grade of the paper image varies according to the colour of light transmitted by the negative.
I doubt if any lab would undertake to try to print B+W onto colour paper from a colour negative certainly not without charging for what would be an entire film of hand made prints
Basically whoever gave the original advice appears to have been talking off the top of their head-why they didn't just hand over some XP2 I don't know!

[topoxforddoc]

attack donut,

I would use another B&W emulsion. I know XP2 can be handy as you can have it developed at any c41 lab or even at walmart. However, if you want to shoot B&W, why not use a proper silver B&W emulsion such as Kodak Tri-X, Ilford HP5. Fuji Neopan 400? I have used XP2 in the past, but now use HP5. I didn't really like the orange cast to the negs. They're difficult to print well on B&W paper too.

Charlie

[ermintrude]

To properly print colour negative film onto B+W paper requires panchromatic paper which, as far as I know, isn't available any longer (waits for inevitable "oh yes it is"!). The few times I have seen the results they weren't very impressive. Using graded paper gives very flat prints with strange tonal reproduction. Multigrade is impossible since the grade of the paper image varies according to the colour of light transmitted by the negative.
I doubt if any lab would undertake to try to print B+W onto colour paper from a colour negative certainly not without charging for what would be an entire film of hand made prints

I'm just telling it as it was when I worked in the lab, about 5 years ago now. Auto printing isnt like hand printing as it's done from a scan and then projected onto the paper by the machine, so there is a 'middle man' who can edit the output and convert to supposed B&W if required. The machine acts like Photoshop and different papers/films come with different profiles which can be entered into the machine so it knows how to convert providing the machine is properly calibrated. It's really not *that* different to working on a scan from your computer to your inkjet.

They can either print to B&W paper post-process by the computer (think of it as a channel mixer) or they can print to colour with great faffing to get it right. The lab I worked in no longer uses B&W paper, it all goes onto colour and I would not, repeat NOT, do B&W work there any longer.

It can be done but tbh unless you know the lab really well and they are very good as I said I would not touch it with a barge pole. Just get yerself some proper B&W film (rather than XP2) and send it away to a proper lab or DIY.

[SUNSHINE]

I can only agree with erm regarding High Street processing ~ I had a temporary job in a lab a couple of years ago, and everything gets printed onto colour paper.
The prints will only come out as good as the set~up or operator at the time.
Use the Proper mono film and DIY for the best results.
Having said that, I know of a photographer that uses XP2 as his normal filmstock,(sometimes processed at any high street lab where~ever he is in the country if he wants to print in a hurry when he gets home) but he does his own darkroom printing and he gets superb results.

[taxor]

I've been a huge fan of Ilford XP2 Super for my black and white through my Nikon N4004.

There's no reason to stop using it. Try the suppliers mentioned above and find another lab who'll process for you. Even Max Spielman will process and print XP2! As an alternative, you might like to try Ilford's own in-house process and print facility. Not sure if they do XP2, but they do D&P on all their own traditional B&W emulsions.

[attack_donut]

Pardon my (obvious) ignorance, but if I am understanding what all of you are saying, XP2 Super isn't "real" back and white film??

Or did I miss something in translation...

But the orange-tint would explain why all of the ones I've had done at the local Walgreens have been 'sepia'. I don't get them to print it out, I get it developed and burned onto CD, any I wish to print from there, I do at home wiht a Canon Pixma IP 4200 printer and Canon paper, and let me tell you, the orint quality is stunning...

[ermintrude]

Pardon my (obvious) ignorance, but if I am understanding what all of you are saying, XP2 Super isn't "real" back and white film??

Or did I miss something in translation...

But the orange-tint would explain why all of the ones I've had done at the local Walgreens have been 'sepia'. I don't get them to print it out, I get it developed and burned onto CD, any I wish to print from there, I do at home wiht a Canon Pixma IP 4200 printer and Canon paper, and let me tell you, the orint quality is stunning...

No XP2 is not 'real' B&W film, the chemistry and exposure process is completely different.

'Normal' B&W film (eg HP5 or something) is composed solely of silver halides, sensitive to the whole apectrum of visible light and processed in ID11 chemistry. Colour film has several layers of emulsion and each layer is coupled to a different dye (red, green or blue), so each layer is sensitive to a different coloured light. It is processed in C41 chemistry.

XP2 emulsion is sensitive to all colours of light like B&W film is, but is ONLY coupled to a black dye (not red green and blue dyes) but is processed in C41 chemistry like any other colour film.

If you havrnt tried 'proper' B&W film I would do so, you will see a marked difference!

[taxor]

XP2 is a 'real' black and white film. It simply achieves its end result through a different process. I would agree entirely that you'll see a marked difference between XP2 and a traditional emulsion but it may be a difference you don't like. In common with other chromogenic emulsions, XP2 exhibits excellent latitude, so it is tolerant of less than perfect exposure and it has a long tonal scale which handles high subject brightness ranges admirably. It's also fine-grained. Personally, I never got on with it. I found it be very soft and lacking in acutance, sharpness, bite etc, call it what you will. Aside from this, the key point is, if you're happy with your results, stick with XP2. Regards, T.

[Manofolympus]

The sepia colour is, in fact, the commonest result of printing XP2 in a colorlab where the machine hasn't been recalibrated to print in monochrome and colour paper is used-XP2 doesn't have an orange mask (to aid home printing) unlike the kodak and fuji offerings which do (to aid neutral results when machine printing)
At the risk of sounding silly, are you in the states?-since Ritz is an American company-in which case most of the above mentioned alternative suppliers won't be a lot of use to you!

[attack_donut]

Yeah, sorry, East Coast, USA.

Can "real" B&W film be developed via the C41 process? The reason I ask is the "real" photo shops around here are closing left and right, and short of sending my roll out of the state I live in to be developed, my only other choices are the 1-hour joints...

[topoxforddoc]

Yeah, sorry, East Coast, USA.

Can "real" B&W film be developed via the C41 process? The reason I ask is the "real" photo shops around here are closing left and right, and short of sending my roll out of the state I live in to be developed, my only other choices are the 1-hour joints...

Attack-donut,

You can't develop standard B&W emulsions (TriX, HP5, Neopan etc) in a normal minilab. The only other C41 mono film is the kodak BW400CN emulsion. Here's the reference sheet from kodak.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...4036/f4036.pdf

That should be relatively easy to get over in the US.

To be honest though, it will only cost you 80-90 USD to buy the kit to develop your own standard B&W films. You need a daylight tank, changing bag, thermometer, scissors, can opener, measuring jugs, fold over paper clips (to hang the film up), a watch with a second hand and some chemicals. Ilford do a set of great tutorials online here

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/page.asp?n=9

These are just as applicable to kodak, tetenal, agfa, or any other chemistry. You just vary the times according to the particular film and developer. If you don't want to print wet prints, then buy a film scanner, a copy of vuescan pro from Ed Hamrick and use an inkjet that does decent mono prints.

Best wishes,

Charlie

[ermintrude]

Yeah, sorry, East Coast, USA.

Can "real" B&W film be developed via the C41 process? The reason I ask is the "real" photo shops around here are closing left and right, and short of sending my roll out of the state I live in to be developed, my only other choices are the 1-hour joints...

No you cant properly dev B&W in C41. Im not sure exactly where on the East Coast you are, but a quick google revealed a fair few places that seem to do B&W. Try posting on photonet, Im sure someone will know of somewhere.