If only I had been at PMA I would have one of these .....

[Done_rundleCams]

Jack

[Damien_Demolder]

I just wish they'd launch some cameras instead of trying to talk-up the brand.

[Benchista]

[dangie]

I just wish they'd launch some cameras instead of trying to talk-up the brand.

Yes Damien, but you're a magazine editor. You have a vested interesed interest in new equipment. Pentax have always produced cameras that are good for doing what they're made for, eg taking pictures. Other makes seem to produce cameras that are good for reviewing in magazines. Why has Canon just released the 500D..? Where in the range was there a need for it..? No doubt in the coming months we'll be informed many times.
Cameras are to be used, not stockpiled in the cupboard. They don't need replacing every year for a "better" model.

[john_g]

I'm with Damien - ok, so my camera is a Samsung GX-10 rather than a Pentax K10D, but I've had it for a couple of years and know that, for me, I couldn't have got a better camera for my budget. But I've just bought a Sigma 10-20mm lens, obviously in a Pentax fit, and, for the first time, I'm having to think about the system I bought in to. Whilst I own this kit there is no problem, but I am starting to worry that Pentax (and Samsung), having tried to fight their way into the dSLR market, are now trying to quietly withdraw. I just have a sense that their commitment to R & D in this area is diminishing and that, in a few years, they might have moved their focus to other markets... APS-C compacts, digital medium format etc. In that case, there will, presumably, come a day when dSLRs have advanced to such a degree that I'll jump ship to another manufacturer's system because Pentax/Samsung won't have a camera that embodies all the latest technological advances. And what will my Sigma lens be worth then? Presumably a lot less than if it fitted a Nikon or Canon.

[dangie]

John
Believe it or not, you are EXACTLY in the same boat as me. I have a K10D, with the 18-55 lens and also a 50-200 zoom. Also a few months ago I bought the Sigma 10-20 lens. All of this I am extremely happy with. Now I wish to add some more lenses/flash etc. But like you I am a little hesitant. Do I, or don't I..?? My problem is not that Pentax/Samsung won't have the "latest" all singing all dancing must-haves, but more basically, will they still be in the dSLR market at all. I know, as you do, that our Pentax/Samsung equipment will more than capable of producing images equal to Canikon etc, for quite a few years yet, but what then? When we do decide to upgrade....what to. I think Pentax are right not to release a camera into an oversaturated market every few months. But unfortunately this is seen as a lack of commitment. Canons line-up could be cut by half and it would still have a model to suit every level. Flooding the market does no good at all.
I am seriously considering selling my Pentax equipment and moving on. It will hurt...but it may have to be done.

[johnriley1uk]

You guys haven't upgraded to the K20D yet, which is a substantially better camera than the K10D.

I'd really urge you to make that move and by the time you are ready to upgrade again I would think the K30D will be well established.

This urge to upgrade though is something that is foisted upon us by advertising pressure, aided by magazines and the media in general. The camera is to make images with and, as previously mentioned, it does that already. The K20D is still as good as it gets in terms of image quality.

[Benchista]

John
Believe it or not, you are EXACTLY in the same boat as me. I have a K10D, with the 18-55 lens and also a 50-200 zoom. Also a few months ago I bought the Sigma 10-20 lens. All of this I am extremely happy with. Now I wish to add some more lenses/flash etc. But like you I am a little hesitant. Do I, or don't I..?? My problem is not that Pentax/Samsung won't have the "latest" all singing all dancing must-haves, but more basically, will they still be in the dSLR market at all. I know, as you do, that our Pentax/Samsung equipment will more than capable of producing images equal to Canikon etc, for quite a few years yet, but what then? When we do decide to upgrade....what to. I think Pentax are right not to release a camera into an oversaturated market every few months. But unfortunately this is seen as a lack of commitment. Canons line-up could be cut by half and it would still have a model to suit every level. Flooding the market does no good at all.
I am seriously considering selling my Pentax equipment and moving on. It will hurt...but it may have to be done.

Pentax do appear to have pretty serious problems. The models they've got are undoubtedly decent, but the range is far from complete at the top end, and they've had their usual marketing nightmare for the last few years, not least with model naming strategies. They entered the DSLR era late, due to problems with their full-frame camera. Possibly too late, in that many Pentax film camera owners will probably have jumped ship. Then they introduced the perfectly respectable (if madly-named) *ist D, then - and only Pentax could've done this - released several slightly different versions of exactly the same camera with slightly different names - a recipe for confusion. So they went back and came up with the K series - well, not original, but harking back to the glory days, so probably a good move. But the latest model is the K-m, with echoes of one of the least interesting K mount SLRs, and not really in line with the current range names. Result? Confusion. I know everything any more successful camera manufacturer does seems to be anathema to you, but there's a reason why they're more successful. Quite a few, actually, but the first one I'll mention is model naming. You think Canon have too many models? Well, possibly they have, but you can tell how they all fit into the range from their name alone. Same goes for Nikon, Sony and Olympus. Pentax finally seemed to have grasped that - and then the K-m. OK, it's not as bad as *ist D, DL, DS and so on, but why didn't they use the US name K2000? Surely that would've been clearer? Thing is if it doesn't make sense to the people who will be selling these cameras - not necessarily photo enthusiasts themselves - then they'll struggle to sell them.
Next, let's look at something Damien alluded to - the vapourware issue. Pentax really has a seriously bad problem with this, going back to the dawn of the digital age: they were originally going to announce a DSLR at Photokina in 2000, and actually had the thing on display at the following PMA - yet it was late 2003 until their first DSLR appeared, and then it was a completely different model, the original being cancelled a year after it had first been announced. And even the *ist D was delayed for months, having been promised much earlier. The story of the development of the 645D beggars belief - I doubt if many people will believe it now until they see it. This sort of thing can't build confidence in the brand - Canon, for instance, learned this lesson long ago, and now doesn't announce a product until they're ready to ship it - it results in a lot less frustration, and it's hardly rocket science - any manufacturer could do the same.

But ultimately, if Pentax wants to keep in this business, they have to make cameras people want to buy, and then sell them. They're OK at the first one, fairly rubbish at the second - they need to make conquest sales, or at least sales to non-DSLR owners, and they need to make repeat sales - get you to part with your cash for an upgraded model. It's not a strength having owners who don't feel the need (or feel able) to upgrade, it's a major business weakness, caused very largely by the fact that there's nothing in the Pentax range for you to upgrade to. It's not the other manufacturers with too many models, but Pentax with way too few - they've good models to attract people in, decent mid-range models, and then - well, and then nothing. If you look back at photographic history over the last 30-40 years, it's littered with the corpses of companies who have tried to occupy just the same market position as Pentax do now - there aren't any left. Of those who had a complete range, arguably only Kyocera/Yahsica has gone.

Will Pentax still be around in 5 years time? I hope so. I hope so. But they really do need to get their act together, IMVHO.

[Monobod]

I have upgraded from the K10D to the K20D. I did this when they had the last round of cashback offers. It took me a long time to do this, as I was happy with the K10D.

I agree with John,the K20D is a totally different animal as far a s image quality is concerned and has answered my criticism of the K10D in that respect. The K10D is great, but the K20D is amazing.

Now I have a camera that will suit my needs for some years to come, probably. I have a substantial investment in Pentax equipment, but a lot of it, apart from 3 sigma lenses, can be used on my Z1-P film camera. If I need higher quality, I will take more transparencies. No arguement there I hope.

So even if Pentax went toes up, I think I could carry on for quite a while. If I did change it would be to Nikon. I have no time for Canon, I don't know why, but they seem to me to be as common as pidgeons..... I just wish Nikon would take off that awful red flash, it looks so cheap to my mind.

[huwevans]

I just wish Nikon would take off that awful red flash, it looks so cheap to my mind.

<gasp!> No less a style genius than Giorgietto Giugiaro himself introduced that (or the original, of which the flashes used nowadays are variants on the theme) back in 1980 with the F3, and you say it looks cheap? BURN THE HERETIC!

[parisian]

Of course Red is quite a classy colour for camera decoration

[Monobod]

Sorry, but yes I do. It is embelishment for the sake of it. Call it brand recognition if you like, but to my mind 'Nikon' on the front is enough.

It is a personal thing and would not stop me buying one, but I just don't like it. I dont like the gold plated K10D either.

[huwevans]

I dont like the gold plated K10D either.

Oh yes, well, that's just chavvy, isn't it? Like having a camera covered in snake-skin, or whatever. Yuck!

[Zou]

To be fair, that t-shirt has (in one form or another) been around for a while, originally as ads when the K10D was launched IIRC.


click for more 645D pictures from PIE2009

[dangie]

Pentax do appear to have pretty serious problems. The models they've got are undoubtedly decent, but the range is far from complete at the top end, and they've had their usual marketing nightmare for the last few years, not least with model naming strategies, and then it was a completely different model, the original being cancelled a year after it had first been announced........

I've curtailed the rest to save space. An excellent reply though.

I agree totally with what you say. My problem is not with the K10D at all. I think it's excellent. At the moment I have no wish to upgrade to the K20D or whatever may be next.
It's investing more money in the system that is my worry.

I shall be retiring in three years time hopefully. Money will be a bit tighter. Now is the time for me to build up a system I shall be content with. Ok every few years I'll probably want a new body (camera not mine. Mind you a younger model to replace her indoors would be nice...) but that's ok. Pentax do not appear to know which way to go. Unfortunately down is pretty much favourite at the moment. I do hope they survive, but at the moment I'm not prepared to wait and see. It's not five years time I'm thinking about but twenty-five (or more hopefully).
Best regards Dangie.

[johnriley1uk]

There's little point in trying to predict 25 years from now...it seems a little excessive?

I would just enjoy your Pentaxes now and worry about the future when it's ready to be worried about.

[Monobod]

If Pentax were really going down, do you think that Sigma would bother to support the KA mount, or produce flashguns including a ring flash for the Pentax? Of course they would not.

You lot are as guilty about talking down Pentax as the Press are for talking up the recession. They scare everyone into not spending, so it feeds on itself.

You lot scare off potential Pentax buyers, who think you might be right. If you talked more about the excellent build quality, the weatherproofing, the superb lenses and flash guns and the amazing value for money then we might get more people on board.

We all know Pentax do not have the financial clout that Canon and Nikon have, they are a smaller concern producing ecxcellent kit for the more discerning user, who wants a camera that takes pictures rather than one loaded with three hundred focal points and HD video, that most users will never use.

Sorry, but I might just have a point.

[Benchista]

If Pentax were really going down, do you think that Sigma would bother to support the KA mount, or produce flashguns including a ring flash for the Pentax? Of course they would not.

Sigma are geared up to sell to as many people as possible, and they've been geared up to sell to Pentax and Samsung owners, too. I don't believe the availability of Sigma lenses and accessories is a barometer of the strength or otherwise of a manufacturer, but if you want to take third-party lens availability as a guide, the fact that Tamron's new 60mm macro has been announced without a Pentax-mount version ought to be very worrying indeed. At best, it means they don't think there are enough Pentax customers to be worth the bother.

You lot are as guilty about talking down Pentax as the Press are for talking up the recession. They scare everyone into not spending, so it feeds on itself.

You lot scare off potential Pentax buyers, who think you might be right.

Talk about shooring the messenger. Do you really think that all potential Pentax buyers are logging on here to check out our thoughts before going out and buying? You can't blame anyone but Pentax for the mess they're in, as I think I've already detailed.

If you talked more about the excellent build quality, the weatherproofing, the superb lenses and flash guns and the amazing value for money then we might get more people on board.

Have you handled any of the competition recently? Build quality is pretty excellent across the board these days. Weatherproofing? Well, show me the weatherproofed lenses to go with the bodies, and I'll show you a feature that's not a gimmick. My experience of using non-weatherproofed bodies is that they'll stand up to any conditions I want to shoot in, including quite heavy rain. The lenses? Ah, now here is Pentax's real strength - there are some wonderful lenses, especially the marvellous Limited lenses, but not limited (sorry!) to just them. However, there are also a few dogs out there, too. But the problem is that what Pentax have really been selling on for the last few years is price. That's not likely to be a great long-term strategy, especially if you've not got much of an upgrade path to walk people through later. And those that are buying primarily on price aren't going to avail themselves of the decent Pentax lenses, either, but stick with the cheap ones.

We all know Pentax do not have the financial clout that Canon and Nikon have, they are a smaller concern producing ecxcellent kit for the more discerning user, who wants a camera that takes pictures rather than one loaded with three hundred focal points and HD video, that most users will never use.

Well once anyone starts talking about "the more discerning user", it's clear that it's their heart talking and not their head. I can't believe anybody could genuinely believe that sort of statement, but I'll leave it there. And I would be more than a little surprised if Pentax don't start fitting HD video to their cameras within a year.

Sorry, but I might just have a point.

It really doesn't look like it, I'm afraid. However, I don't think it's likely that whatever happens you'll be left in the lurch. I suspect that if things did get really bad for Pentax, Samsung might step into the picture rather more, and their financial clout and attitude might actually propel the mount to the top of the class. We'll have to wait and see.

[johnriley1uk]

What I don't understand is the ferocity of your argument, it seems somewhat OTT to me.

You don't have to buy Pentax cameras and lenses (and by the way there are weatherproofed lenses in the range) if you don't want to.

That's fine.

[john_g]

Ok, so maybe I should counter-balance my concerns with the positives: I still think the Samsung GX-10, and hence also the GX-20 and the Pentax K10D and K20D, are superbly designed cameras and I can't imagine wanting to upgrade because of any missing features. But, as with all cameras of a year or two back, the performance at high ISO settings doesn't match what is available with the latest cameras and I can imagine that, at some point in the fairly distant future, I might start to think about upgrading. But funds are extremely limited, so not to the GX-20 and probably not even the GX-30 which some say will arrive later this year, but maybe the GX-40. And that, for me, is the point: will there be a GX-40?