Mamiya 645 Film Holder and operation

[StevenJ]

Having had my first foray into medium format, I am stuck with the film holder.

Tha camera is a second hand Mamiya 645 from the 1980's, in mint condition.

It has a "220" film holder, but no 120 fil holder.

Now, I loaded a 120 film on the holder, ran it through, but the problem is on the "220" film holder, the winding mechanism doesn't go slack until after 30 exposures, unlike the 120, where it goes slack at 15 exposures.

Does anyone know what the difference is in the holders, can I modify the holder I have, or where can I source a 120 holder from?

Otherwise I guess the only solution is to use the "220" holder, wait until I reach 16 exposures, and then keep winding & exposing the paper trail........

Anyone any ideas?

Many thanks

S

[AlexMonro]

Ffordes have a number of Mamiya 645 120 inserts at £10 - 15.
Mifsuds have them at £29. MXV have several at £11 - 20.

Ffordes
Mifsuds
MXV

I think some of the smaller secondhand dealers who advertise in the back of AP also list them from time to time.

[OneTen]

Hi Steven, 120 film uses backing paper along the length of the film whereas 220 film doesn't. To compensate for this 220 film holders use a pressure plate that narrows the gap. Running a 120 film through this may result in the film being scratched.

120 film holders are usually easy to find at dealers like Ffordes or MXV or on eBay.

[StevenJ]

thanks guys.

As an engineer, I should know better than not use the correct tools for the job! I didn't howver know there was a difference between 120/220 film holder, or even what to ask for.

I will look up the websites kindly provided and purchase the correct holder before running another film through the camera.

thanks,

Steven

[GeoffC]

Running a 120 film through this may result in the film being scratched.

Mmmm, it shouldn't do, as it's the paper backing that would be in contact with the pressure plate, and the only points of contact on the emulsion side would be outside of the image area anyway.

[AlexMonro]

However, there could be issues with the film advance / frame spacing, due to the thicker 120 film + paper backing.

[nimbus]

My 645 is loaded at present, but I seem to recall the obvious difference between the 120 and 220 film holders was a small part screwed onto one (I am unable to remember which) that acted on a part in the body or back to adjust the film stop for 15 or 30 exposures. I did have a 220 holder but found it was prone to leak light onto the film. If the part is screwed onto the 220 holder it's removal MAY render it suitable for 120 use.

[StevenJ]

While the original query has been answered, and I have ordered an insert from Ffordes, I do wonder if someone could help with this;

the size of the image on the negative is 6x4.5cm.

I have a viewfinder where I look down into the camera from the top, and I am sure that the image is more square than 6x4.5cm

is the view through the finder really what I would expect on the negative?

As you can tell, I am completely new to Medium Format - but I'm trying to give it a serious go

regards

Steven

[OneTen]

Hi Steven, you should be seeing the 6x4.5 image in the viewfinder, maybe the previous owner has masked it off to a square. Try taking the waist level finder off and having a look. There are two small buttons to depress to remove it. The actual size of the negative is something like 56x42mm, so just a little smaller than 6x4.5cm.

[Benchmark]

Having had my first foray into medium format, I am stuck with the film holder.

Tha camera is a second hand Mamiya 645 from the 1980's, in mint condition.

It has a "220" film holder, but no 120 fil holder.

Now, I loaded a 120 film on the holder, ran it through, but the problem is on the "220" film holder, the winding mechanism doesn't go slack until after 30 exposures, unlike the 120, where it goes slack at 15 exposures.

Does anyone know what the difference is in the holders, can I modify the holder I have, or where can I source a 120 holder from?

Otherwise I guess the only solution is to use the "220" holder, wait until I reach 16 exposures, and then keep winding & exposing the paper trail........

Anyone any ideas?

Many thanks

S

Hi Steven,
The 120 and 220 film holders are different, as you have already found.

Firstly, there is a small plate on the 220 holder that can be removed so the camera winds on after 15, rather than 30 exposures when using the auto winder.

However, the main difference, as others have pointed out, is that the pressure plate is different on the 220 backs, having milled edges to accommodate the thinner 220 film, and to hold it flat.

From what I can see, if you were to use 120 film in the 220 holder the film plane would be positioned slightly too far forward, and would possibly affect focus at wide apertures. In this respect, don't forget that medium format has a shallower depth of field than 35 mm or APS.

[StevenJ]

HI Nigel,

I have just purchased by post a 120 film holder, and it has already arrived. I noticed the plate oyu mention straight away, thanks.

I'll wait and see just how my first folm through turns out, I will be picking it up today - but in future - I'll be using the 120 holder, unless there is no discernable difference - in which case I may use them both.

thanks,

Steven

[StevenJ]

not sure if anyone can offer more advice on this, the second film I got developped (after using the 120 film holder this time) was also completely unexposed, despite it passing through the camera. I know it passed through the camera for sure becuase I made a note of the reel the filw was on before closing the back.

Is there some switch or setting that stopps the shutter being fired on this camera?

I thought I was pretty good at figuring things like this out - but this has me stumped.

[Benchista]

Are you sure you loaded the film the right way round and didn't just expose the backing paper?

[StevenJ]

that is where my inexperience comes in.

I didn't even know that the backing papaer went the length of the film. I though that maybe just the leader and the end section might have been paper.

This is a very strong possibility.......

[beejaybee]

Is there some switch or setting that stopps the shutter being fired on this camera?

Stupid question, but did you open the blind that protects the film when changing the back?

[StevenJ]

the 645M, you can't actually change the back. You open the door, and remove the film holder, load and replace.

[Benchista]

that is where my inexperience comes in.

I didn't even know that the backing papaer went the length of the film. I though that maybe just the leader and the end section might have been paper.

This is a very strong possibility.......

That's true for 220, but not 120, which is still pretty much as it was when cameras had red windows on the back and you wound on by watching for the number printed on the backing paper. They're still printed there...

I suggest this because as an M645 user, I can't think of any other obvious problem. Assuming the shutter is opening and the mirror lifting, there should otherwise be some sort of image - the camera is pretty basic, after all. I hope that's all it is.

[Benchmark]

I assume the 645M uses the same film holder as the later cameras with removable film backs?

When you load the film onto the holder, the black side of the backing paper should face outwards, whilst the white or coloured side will face in to the film holder itself.

Let me know if you would like a pic of a loaded film holder.

On the later models, the dark slide interlock can sometimes fail, which led me to make a dozen blank exposures half way up Roseberry Topping one cold and frosty morning.

[Benchista]

I assume the 645M uses the same film holder as the later cameras with removable film backs?

Yup.

[Benchmark]

To help illustrate correct film loading, I have uploaded three photographs showing the 645 film holder with a new roll of Portra.

I appologise the for quality of the pix, which I grabbed quickly this afternoon, but I hope these at least show how I think it should be done.




1) This is the rear of the holder. Note the yellow backing paper and markings. The film has been advanced to the start position. If you can see black paper or film here, you have it the wrong way around!





2) This is the top of the film holder. Note the film routing from beneath the top roll. Also note that the coloured paper and markings are showing on the outside of the roll.





3) This is the business end of the film holder which faces the lens. Note that the black side of the backing paper must face the lens! If you can see coloured paper or numbers this side you will be shooting blanks!



Finally, it may be worth removing the lens, and opening the shutter on the B position to make sure that the shutter is actually working, and that you can see the film (and not the backing paper) through the camera.

I hope that helps.