CSBC
News Editor
Reged: 24/11/2006
Posts: 821
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AP News
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37849
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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I hope Anthony Ward is thoroughly ashamed of himself over this one, and is put on the Lack of Common Sense Offenders Register for life. 
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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john_g
Pooh-bah Hoo-ha
Reged: 09/05/2007
Posts: 2536
Loc: Surrey
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I've not seen all the images, but my feeling is that the photographer should have pleaded not guilty and relied on the judge/jury to find that the images weren't indecent. On the other hand, maybe there was a fear that if he had done so and then been found guilty, perhaps the punishment would have been more harsh. If that's the case, it seems to make a nonsense of British justice and everyone's right to defend themselves.
Anyway, this is from the British Board of Film Classification's website: "The BBFC's lawyers, however, have advised that there is no legal definition of indecency and whether a particular image is indecent can only be established by a jury or magistrate. An important definition in case law has been that an image is indecent if it “offends the ordinary modesty of the average man” [R v Stanley (1965)]. In order for an image to be indecent, there may also be some kind of sexual connotation. Simple nudity may be unlikely to be considered indecent."
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John
Who could suppose that angels move the stars, or be so superstitious as to suppose that because one cannot see one's soul at the end of a microscope, it does not exist?
R.D.Laing The Politics Of Experience
http://www.flickr.com/photos/john_gass
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beejaybee
Marvin
Reged: 18/07/2007
Posts: 4967
Loc: Really Here In Name Only
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Quote:
it seems to make a nonsense of British justice and everyone's right to defend themselves.
Ah, so someone else has finally noticed 
We're so tied up in promoting busybody's charters that no-one seems to have time to investigate serious crime any more. Got a murder to investigate? Just grab a sad loner off the street & convict them. Speeding? Fine and penalty points for the registered owner, not the driver, irrespective of whether any actual harm was done. Carrying a knife? Jail for you, laddie. The law doesn't care that you have no intention of ever using it, except possibly to whittle wood or de-stone horses' hooves. You get no more severe a sentence for actually sticking it into someone, so you might as well do that.
We really need a law questioning the sanity of the space between politicians' ears, but we ain't ever going to get one.
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chromatin
journeyman
Reged: 26/06/2008
Posts: 92
Loc: NE Lincs
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So the parents consent to shots of their daughters, the judge admits he has no base or sexual motive and yet he's put on the Sex Offenders Register and given a community sentence? WT blinking F? 
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My Flickr Photostream
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john_g
Pooh-bah Hoo-ha
Reged: 09/05/2007
Posts: 2536
Loc: Surrey
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So the parents consent to shots of their daughters, the judge admits he has no base or sexual motive and yet he's put on the Sex Offenders Register and given a community sentence? WT blinking F?
I imagine that's the least the law could prescribe, given that he pleaded guilty. Hence my comment above.
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John
Who could suppose that angels move the stars, or be so superstitious as to suppose that because one cannot see one's soul at the end of a microscope, it does not exist?
R.D.Laing The Politics Of Experience
http://www.flickr.com/photos/john_gass
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LargeFormat
old hand
Reged: 24/10/2006
Posts: 1179
Loc: Buckinghamshire and Cumbria
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I imagine that's the least the law could prescribe, given that he pleaded guilty. Hence my comment above.
As John says the law seems defective in this area. If a criminal maintains his innocence whilst in prison he will be denied parole. If he admits guilt, whether of not he is guilty, he will be entitled to parole. Where is the justice in that?
This guy was in a position where he could plead not guilty and risk a prison sentence or plead not guilty and walk.
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TheFatControlleR
L'éminence Grise, Devil's Advocate & AP Fanboy!
Reged: 24/04/2001
Posts: 11654
Loc: Not here, it's rubbish...
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As John says the law seems defective in this area. If a criminal maintains his innocence whilst in prison he will be denied parole. If he admits guilt, whether of not he is guilty, he will be entitled to parole. Where is the justice in that?
It's the mentality of the ducking stool. We haven't really progressed very much since the dark ages where justice is concerned. 
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TheFatControlleR
And so, my fellow Benchists: ask not what your bench can do for you - ask what you can do for your bench... Ben Chism
Live fat, die young, and leave a self-basting corpse...
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chromatin
journeyman
Reged: 26/06/2008
Posts: 92
Loc: NE Lincs
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IANAL but presumably the CPS would have been involved who would have had the images and the parental consent to hand as evidence. They would have had a look at his website and probably his hard drive/backups/DVD collection.
How did it ever get to court? And when it did, why couldn't the judge say there's no case to answer?
I hope the judge ordered that his community service was to photograph kids.
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My Flickr Photostream
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TheFatControlleR
L'éminence Grise, Devil's Advocate & AP Fanboy!
Reged: 24/04/2001
Posts: 11654
Loc: Not here, it's rubbish...
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I hope the judge ordered that his community service was to photograph kids.
Now that would have been an inspired judgement.
BTW: For anyone who missed it, this story was discussed a couple of days ago in The Lounge (now moved to News).
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TheFatControlleR
And so, my fellow Benchists: ask not what your bench can do for you - ask what you can do for your bench... Ben Chism
Live fat, die young, and leave a self-basting corpse...
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Gromit
enthusiast
Reged: 03/06/2008
Posts: 255
Loc: Sunny Swansea, UK
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How did it ever get to court? And when it did, why couldn't the judge say there's no case to answer?
Apparently because of the way our laws operate this wasn't an option. There wasn't a trial as he'd pleaded guilty. So no case as such, only a sentence. Yep the laws an ass.
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jonboy
newbie
Reged: 09/02/2008
Posts: 21
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I hope Anthony Ward is thoroughly ashamed of himself over this one, and is put on the Lack of Common Sense Offenders Register for life.
But why? Have you not read and understood the whole story?
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37849
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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Quote:
Quote:
I hope Anthony Ward is thoroughly ashamed of himself over this one, and is put on the Lack of Common Sense Offenders Register for life.
But why? Have you not read and understood the whole story?
Indeed I have - why, haven't you? It's obvious from the story that his company operates without any common sense, and he should indeed be thoroughly ashamed of that. If you've read many of my posts, you'll see that in general I am the last person to jump to judgement about news stories, always trying to see the other side. There is no other side on this one, it's plain stupid through and through, and Mr Ward's company are the idiots that started the ball rolling, so deserve their fair share of the opprobrium.
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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john_g
Pooh-bah Hoo-ha
Reged: 09/05/2007
Posts: 2536
Loc: Surrey
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I suppose my question is this: one image, that didn't show anything untoward in my view, has been posted with this story. But were there any other photographs that showed nudity? Even if this were to be so, as the quote I posted earlier indicates, this probably isn't enough to lead anyone to conclude that the images were indecent. Nevertheless, child nudity might have been enough to warrant Bona Sprint referring the matter to the police.
But without seeing all the images, I don't think any of us can say where this chain of events went wrong, except that, because of the judge's comments, I guess we can all agree that justice has not been served.
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John
Who could suppose that angels move the stars, or be so superstitious as to suppose that because one cannot see one's soul at the end of a microscope, it does not exist?
R.D.Laing The Politics Of Experience
http://www.flickr.com/photos/john_gass
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PapaLazarou
Mr Joyful
Reged: 04/01/2006
Posts: 206
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The lab were correct to bring this to the attention of the police, and the police were correct to act.
The alternative does not bear thinking about.
Ignore suspect images?
The idiot should count himself very lucky not to be in segregation in a penal unit.
In the current climate to find yourself taking photographs of children where there can be any dubiety expressed, is just bloody arrogance.
The law sets precedents. Clever lawyers also try and get people off.
I think the judgement was sound. He could have been hit with a lot worse, and it might make others think twice about images of children that could land them in trouble.
And before anybody argues "it's okay the parents were present" well often they are.
Edited by PapaLazarou (08/08/2008 22:46)
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Gromit
enthusiast
Reged: 03/06/2008
Posts: 255
Loc: Sunny Swansea, UK
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Just because pictures include naked children doesn't make them indecent. If it did then all those ads on TV with naked or semi-naked children should be banned and the makers prosecuted.
We are all aware of how authorities tend to over react with photographers and this is what appears to have happened here. The photographer probably just accepted the view of the police and pleaded guilty.
If the photos really were indecent then why did the judge make the comments he did, and why were the parents not also charged?
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john_g
Pooh-bah Hoo-ha
Reged: 09/05/2007
Posts: 2536
Loc: Surrey
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Quote:
The lab were correct to bring this to the attention of the police, and the police were correct to act.
The alternative does not bear thinking about.
Ignore suspect images?
But none of us has seen the set of images.
Quote:
The idiot should count himself very lucky not to be in segregation in a penal unit.
In the current climate to find yourself taking photographs of children where there can be any dubiety expressed, is just bloody arrogance.
So where would you draw the line? A parent taking a photograph of their child in a swimsuit? Maybe a group of family friends with someone else's child in a swimsuit? A parent photographing their child's face whilst the child is obviously in the bath? You seem to be just ranting against child pornography, which any of us would do, but you're not really saying anything about what is acceptable and what isn't.
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The law sets precedents. Clever lawyers also try and get people off.
As you can read in my earlier post, precedents tend to come down on the side of the photographer in this case. Also, do you not think that our justice system, quite rightly, rests full-square on people's right to a legal defence?
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I think the judgement was sound. He could have been hit with a lot worse, and it might make others think twice about images of children that could land them in trouble.
It's unlikely to deter paedophiles whilst it will scare the hell out of bona fide photographers.
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And before anybody argues "it's okay the parents were present" well often they are.
That's the one point I won't argue with. Child abuse is a real and horrendous aspect of society. But that doesn't mean we should attack everyone who has anything to do with children. By doing that, in my view, we make it easier for the real culprits to slip through the net.
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John
Who could suppose that angels move the stars, or be so superstitious as to suppose that because one cannot see one's soul at the end of a microscope, it does not exist?
R.D.Laing The Politics Of Experience
http://www.flickr.com/photos/john_gass
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jonboy
newbie
Reged: 09/02/2008
Posts: 21
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I hope Anthony Ward is thoroughly ashamed of himself over this one, and is put on the Lack of Common Sense Offenders Register for life.
But why? Have you not read and understood the whole story?
Indeed I have - why, haven't you? It's obvious from the story that his company operates without any common sense, and he should indeed be thoroughly ashamed of that. If you've read many of my posts, you'll see that in general I am the last person to jump to judgement about news stories, always trying to see the other side. There is no other side on this one, it's plain stupid through and through, and Mr Ward's company are the idiots that started the ball rolling, so deserve their fair share of the opprobrium.
Then I find your judgment lacking both in common sense and equity; also, it's disturbing.
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beejaybee
Marvin
Reged: 18/07/2007
Posts: 4967
Loc: Really Here In Name Only
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Quote:
The alternative does not bear thinking about.
Ignore suspect images?
Busybody.
Ignore unless and until it is obvious that actual harm is being done (penetration, serious assault).
Do not read things which doesn't exist into a situation, just because you have a warped mind.
Take your argument to its extreme ... we'd have to lose most of the TV schedule, let alone those cute & harmless adverts where women are kissing babies on their naked arse. (Might be a good idea to lose those adverts but certainly not on the grounds that they're sexually perverted.)
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TheFatControlleR
L'éminence Grise, Devil's Advocate & AP Fanboy!
Reged: 24/04/2001
Posts: 11654
Loc: Not here, it's rubbish...
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Do not read things which doesn't exist into a situation, just because you have a warped mind.
Indeed. I've often referred to 'the eye of the beholder' in situations like this where individuals see/imagine the worst.
To my mind it's something within themselves that 'sees' it when it clearly doesn't exist - witness the recent furore over images in an Australian exhibition, an image of Susan Sarandon's daughter withdrawn for a Mapplethorpe exhibition at the Hayward in the 90s, or the arrest and questioning of newsreader Julia Somerville over images of her own kids in the bath processed by Boots (they 'reported' her)...
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TheFatControlleR
And so, my fellow Benchists: ask not what your bench can do for you - ask what you can do for your bench... Ben Chism
Live fat, die young, and leave a self-basting corpse...
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