Azzi
member
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 195
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Hi folks,
I`m feeling my way through some basic film processing, so far with quite pleasing results. The biggest problem I have is loading the film (120 med format) into the spiral - last night it took nearly an hour(!), I got in a right mess, the adhesive paper backing stuck to the film, the film itself became tangled and creased, and locating the edges into the spiral induced much bad language. I use a changing bag for this procedure.
Does anyone have any tips for loading the film into the spiral??
Thanks for any advice...
Chris
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisnj2008/
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37886
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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What kind of spirals are you using?
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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Azzi
member
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 195
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Gosh, I`v only just posted and get an instant reply.. thanks.
I`m using Patterson spirals - I think they are "universal" as they can be adjusted for 120 and 35mm.
Chris
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisnj2008/
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Fen
BAD WOLF
Reged: 12/03/2002
Posts: 20929
Loc: Currently Unknown!
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I always used to snip the corners on the end of the film to give a more curved edge.
Made it a little easier to get the film onto the spiral, but I think it's just down to practice really 
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Fen .......... My Galleries - My Blog - My Flickr
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Fen
BAD WOLF
Reged: 12/03/2002
Posts: 20929
Loc: Currently Unknown!
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Oh... even though the film was in a changing bag, I found it easier if my eyes were closed!
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Fen .......... My Galleries - My Blog - My Flickr
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37886
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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OK, then the first thing to do is to make sure that the reels are ABSOLUTELY dry.
It's worth practising with the reels until you really know by feel which bit is which, too.
Like Fen, I snip the sharp points off the corners of the film - stops it snagging.
Then I apply a very slight curve across the film when inserting it into the reel, and pull it as far as possible onto the reel before winding it with the customary back/forth motion - which has to be done fairly carefully with 120. Keeping the backing paper away isn't always easy - you have to find a method that works for you, but really, it's a case of being aware. And also like Fen, I find it easier with my eyes shut!
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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Fen
BAD WOLF
Reged: 12/03/2002
Posts: 20929
Loc: Currently Unknown!
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Quote:
And also like Fen, I find it easier with my eyes shut!
Like cycling off-road downhill in a forest!
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Fen .......... My Galleries - My Blog - My Flickr
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Azzi
member
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 195
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Thanks Fen,
So snipping off the corners helps....I`ll try it.
Well last night my eyes were closed as well, in fact my whole face was contorted with pain and covered in sweat as I cried out for help...
Chris
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisnj2008/
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37886
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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Quote:
Quote:
And also like Fen, I find it easier with my eyes shut!
Like cycling off-road downhill in a forest!
Nope, I like to know when to jump off then! 
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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Azzi
member
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 195
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Nick, thanks,
Seems like I just need to persevere. It`s annoying but I`ve developed 4 rolls as a practice - the results were great. So last night I had to develop a film (SFX200) taken for an SPI course I`m doing, typically it went wrong, the images all came out as I hoped but most are damaged and not useable.
Thanks again,
Chris
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisnj2008/
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NorthernMonkey
enthusiast
Reged: 01/05/2007
Posts: 271
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I'll second the absolutely dry comment. They have to be really really really dry. Leaving on a radiator, or using a hair dryer can help this.
I remove the paper completely, put it to the side, then loads the film. (all in a changing bag).
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frank1
addict
Reged: 14/06/2005
Posts: 628
Loc: the big smoke islington
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In my day when using identical film I'd wind the first on and leaving the sticky tape attached the second film, all in the changing bag. I have to say though I have had my sticky moments and its a pain. Practice makes perfect goodluck
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Azzi
member
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 195
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AHH! - I think I have been stupid - do you encourage the film onto the spiral so it goes well beyond the little ball bearing grips before starting the winding??
I have been stopping as soon as I reach the grips, I then find it becomes loose as soon as I attempt to wind it on.
Chris
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisnj2008/
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37886
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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Pull it on as far as you possibly can - it's much easier that way.
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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ermintrude
Hinkypuff
Reged: 30/06/2003
Posts: 12548
Loc: London, UK
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You dont have any form of room with no windows you could seal yourself into to do it do you? The wetness is a major problem and I always found with a changing bag the longer you spend in there the sweatier your hands get and the worse it gets. You could try using film gloves, it may or may not help, ie the film will get less damp but you wont be able to feel it as easily...
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Azzi
member
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 195
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Thanks again Nick - that will help a lot!
Ermintrude - yes I created my own arm length Sauna last night, it was a complete shambles! I have a tiny cloak room - less than a meter square, its definitely worth considering. This photography “thing” can become pretty solitary……every ones help here has been great.
I`ll check in again tomorrow.
Chris
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisnj2008/
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Malcolm_Stewart
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/2005
Posts: 2583
Loc: Milton Keynes, UK
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Well, you're not alone finding trouble when loading 120 film into a modern spiral. I've developed hundreds of 35mm films over the years with few problems during the loading phase, and I know and practise all the procedures advised above.
I started with 120 in the 1950s (without the benefit of Paterson's steel balls or other gizmos) and had few problems then, so what's changed? I think it's the move to allow spirals to take the longer 220 film or two 120 films, one after the other. This has lessened the gap between the grooves in the spiral, and I think it's this which has made loading 120 films more difficult today than way back when.
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Malcolm Stewart
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zx9
old hand
Reged: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1041
Loc: London
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Just skimmed through the thread so this may have been said already.
Why not sacrifice an unexposed roll of film to practice first in day light and when you are happy with that try again in the changing bag.
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ZX9 (Keith)  
My Flickr Pictures
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Garry McNamara
Snr Tutor/Bongo Banjo
Reged: 16/08/2006
Posts: 2079
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Finally has anyone found a way to get a compact flash card through those little ball bearings or do I have to use a stainless steel spiral and one of those windy thingumies?
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beejaybee
Marvin
Reged: 18/07/2007
Posts: 4980
Loc: Really Here In Name Only
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Quote:
Finally has anyone found a way to get a compact flash card through those little ball bearings or do I have to use a stainless steel spiral and one of those windy thingumies?
Try a sledgehammer
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taxor
Reged: 09/07/2004
Posts: 571
Loc: Lancaster, UK
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The simplest way to load 120 films is to locate a piece of waste 120 film (about 4" long) in the groove below the ball-bearings. This stops your film falling into the spiral as it always used to do with me. Once the film has 'taken' onto the reel, carefully slide out the waste bit from below. Cutting the corners from your film is, as everyone has said, essential.
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"I wanna hold your gland". Lemming & McCartney
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beejaybee
Marvin
Reged: 18/07/2007
Posts: 4980
Loc: Really Here In Name Only
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Quote:
The simplest way to load 120 films is to locate a piece of waste 120 film (about 4" long) in the groove below the ball-bearings. This stops your film falling into the spiral as it always used to do with me. Once the film has 'taken' onto the reel, carefully slide out the waste bit from below. Cutting the corners from your film is, as everyone has said, essential.
Why make life more difficult than it has to be? I've never had any problems loading 120 films into Paterson spirals, provided they're dry. I've never found a need to chop corners off, or fiddle around with bits of waste film.
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huwevans
Old Hand
Reged: 05/08/2000
Posts: 15464
Loc: Dorset, UK
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I always had problems loading 120 onto dry Paterson spirals until I started cutting the corners off the film - they used to catch on the radial bits of the spiral. Also I found the curl in the film made it very difficult to get it properly located in the mouth of the spiral until I sorted that by cutting a piece of old printing paper to use as a guide.
If you've not had these problems that's great, but they (and the same basic solutions) crop up over and over again on forums, so lots of other people certainly have experienced them. Maybe some reels are just better than others?
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Huw Evans.
  
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Azzi
member
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 195
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Ok folks, thanks for your input - I tried again last night with some old film and did find it easier after snipping the corners off. I`ll try again in anger this weekend.
Thanks again,
Chris
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisnj2008/
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37886
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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Quote:
I always had problems loading 120 onto dry Paterson spirals until I started cutting the corners off the
I have the same issue with 35mm, for that matter - I've developed (sorry!) the knack of cutting through the perforations to leave a rounded edge which works a treat.
Personally, I've never needed the feeder guide trick, but knowing of it, I've always had it in reserve just in case.
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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beejaybee
Marvin
Reged: 18/07/2007
Posts: 4980
Loc: Really Here In Name Only
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Quote:
Maybe some reels are just better than others?
Possible ... but maybe it's technique ... I find it works best if a very slight outward pressure is applied when twisting the spiral to load the film, not inward pressure as may seem natural. Obviously you do not want to tug hard enough to risk pulling the spiral apart!
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zx9
old hand
Reged: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1041
Loc: London
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Now we have done the easy ones
Any tips on 220 and metal spirals
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ZX9 (Keith)
My Flickr Pictures
Edited by zx9 (12/06/2008 22:43)
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huwevans
Old Hand
Reged: 05/08/2000
Posts: 15464
Loc: Dorset, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
Maybe some reels are just better than others?
Possible ... but maybe it's technique ... I find it works best if a very slight outward pressure is applied when twisting the spiral to load the film, not inward pressure as may seem natural. Obviously you do not want to tug hard enough to risk pulling the spiral apart!
Well all it needs for a leading corner of the film to snag on a radial member is for the film to angle even slightly off line. And since by definition with these spirals the film is being pushed at one side, the force is always being applied off-centre - snagging is really only a natural consequence of the design. Probably the degree of chamfering on the radial members is going to be critical, and that's why I could easily believe that some reels might be better than others. I have and use Paterson reels dating from the 70s right up to the present decade, and I don't think it would be at all surprising if the precise detail design had changed over that time period.
Perhaps pulling the spiral halves apart slightly might tend to reduce the chances of snagging, but clearly that's going beyond the intended operating procedure for the spirals. If it works for you that's great. But the thing you really must avoid is an unrecoverable snag - the design of these spirals prevents the film being pulled backwards to free a snagged film, and the only way of recovering the situation may be to actually separate the spiral, which can only be done by twisting the reel halves beyond the point where the film is binding, and that means buckling and very likely tearing the film. A couple of snips with a pair of scissors takes only a few seconds and eliminates even the possibility of snagging, so it's hardly over-complicating matters - just a simple sensible precaution that works 100% of the time.
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Huw Evans.
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37886
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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Quote:
Any tips on 220 and metal spirals
I never got on with metal spirals, and I've never used 220. I've only ever physically seen it on sale once, and that was a week or so after I said I had never seen it at all...
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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Benchmark
Is it safe?
Reged: 12/07/2005
Posts: 3034
Loc: Sedgefield, Co Durham
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Quote:
Quote:
The simplest way to load 120 films is to locate a piece of waste 120 film (about 4" long) in the groove below the ball-bearings. This stops your film falling into the spiral as it always used to do with me. Once the film has 'taken' onto the reel, carefully slide out the waste bit from below. Cutting the corners from your film is, as everyone has said, essential.
Why make life more difficult than it has to be? I've never had any problems loading 120 films into Paterson spirals, provided they're dry. I've never found a need to chop corners off, or fiddle around with bits of waste film.
I would agree that the reels must be completely dry. Even working in a changing bag on a warm day can create enough moisture to make things sticky.
However, the greatest problem I have ever experienced was when the little stainless steel balls got stuck in place. These must be loose and free before loading the film.
I have used 220 film (old Velvia 50) on odd occasions. It a bit more difficult to load than 120 as it is twice as long, but you don't have the hassle of the paper backing.
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Nigel CRIPN and Bar
Beware of the Dark Slide
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skellum
member
Reged: 25/02/2007
Posts: 109
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Paterson are ubiquitous and beloved by many of us. I have umpteen of their tanks and reels. When it comes to easy loading of 120 film, though, I much prefer a Jobo tank. It NEVER snags. Unfortunately mine only holds one roll, so if I need to process a lot of film I use a Paterson multitank. Much more exciting and unpredictable. Make sure they're dry, and occasionaly split the reel and run a pencil round the groove of the spiral. The graphite make them just a little slippier to load.
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Garry McNamara
Snr Tutor/Bongo Banjo
Reged: 16/08/2006
Posts: 2079
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I found one of these best...
It's a called a dip'n'dunk and it's about as easy as hanging out your socks - you need a bit of room and about £40k but hey, your worth it.
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taxor
Reged: 09/07/2004
Posts: 571
Loc: Lancaster, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
The simplest way to load 120 films is to locate a piece of waste 120 film (about 4" long) in the groove below the ball-bearings. This stops your film falling into the spiral as it always used to do with me. Once the film has 'taken' onto the reel, carefully slide out the waste bit from below. Cutting the corners from your film is, as everyone has said, essential.
Why make life more difficult than it has to be? I've never had any problems loading 120 films into Paterson spirals, provided they're dry. I've never found a need to chop corners off, or fiddle around with bits of waste film.
Well I tried, believe me, I did try loading 120 films without snipping off the corners, with perfectly dry reels and without putting a bit of film underneath and pretty much always with the same result: scratched film, kink marks etc. But, if you can do it without all this, good for you. 
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"I wanna hold your gland". Lemming & McCartn |
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