sjaszczak
A Real Gentleman
Reged: 08/06/2005
Posts: 1077
Loc: York
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Hi folks,
I was playing around earlier in my garden, just taking a few pictures with the RAW+JPG setting of my 40D...just to see if I could do something in RAW to make then look better than the out-of-camera jpeg.
Now, forgive me if I am being dumb, but the software provided by Canon looks crap in comparison to using Elemnts 6 Camera RAW 4.2.... am I missing something? The Canon software seems to have almost no tools to do anything with the shots!?
Ignoring that for a second, I decided to have a go in Camera RAW:
1) I found the adjustments possible there very worthwhile...especially the slight adjustments to white balance, exposure, contrast etc - There appears to be no "curves" setting...am I correct and will this limit the positive effect I can get from using RAW?
2) Should I be using the in-built sharpening of this tool, or is a better tactic to reduce the sharpening to 0 and then to all my sharpening later after I have finished messing about with it in Elements?
3) Noise-reduction... any good? What do the two settings "mean"...Luminance and Color. Is there a better method of noise-reduction? (not that noise is a problem with the 40D though!)
4) Once I have finished messing with it, how do I then move into Element to do my final editing and sharpening and saving to jpeg etc without altering the original RAW file? Seems to me that it would be best to leave the original RAW file as shot just in case I want to go back to the beginning and try again? There are "Save Image", "Done" and "Open Image". If I "open image", do all the necessary editing then save to jpeg, will that both a) provide the best quality method of working and b) preserve the original RAW file as shot?
Incidentally, I could definitely notice a benefit in picking out highlight detail with one of my shots! Not sure how it managed to do this with the limited controls though...
Steve
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Steve
My Flickr
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Meredith
enthusiast
Reged: 23/10/2006
Posts: 269
Loc: Coventry, UK
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Were you using canon's DPP software. That has lots of options.
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Meredith Lewis
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Overread
old hand
Reged: 17/01/2008
Posts: 758
Loc: UK; Suffolk
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I use elements RAW converter and I find that it works fine:
1, 2 and 3 - sorry I can't hep here I tend to open the RAW file with elements and then change the lighting settings and such and then open it in elements for sharpening, noise reductin and such
4) Use "Open Image" to open the image in elements, this does not save the image so the original RAW file is untouched. Then make any changes in elements that you want (you will need to go to "image" "mode" "8-bit" to make certain changes as elements can't chance everything in 14bit (which RAW converts are) - but you don't really lose that much in quality of image.
Once you have changed the image around use "save as" and save it in a diffenet folder (that way you can keep the same file name incase you want to go back to the same original RAW file - very useful if you take a burst of shots of the same thing)
This way you have the original unedited RAW to work on again if you ever wish to
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My photography blog
http://overread.wordpress.com
Edited by Overread (28/04/2008 22:21)
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Maui888
journeyman
Reged: 13/01/2007
Posts: 53
Loc: Hampshire, UK.
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Re (4), after you've finished editing you probably want to 'Save As' *.tif (lossless) rather than *.jpg (lossy), to preserve all that hard earned, improved detail!
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beejaybee
Marvin
Reged: 18/07/2007
Posts: 4443
Loc: Really Here In Name Only
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Quote:
There appears to be no "curves" setting...am I correct and will this limit the positive effect I can get from using RAW?
Pass. No, you can apply curves using some other tool later.
Quote:
is a better tactic to reduce the sharpening to 0 and then to all my sharpening later after I have finished messing about with it in Elements?
Yes.
Quote:
What do the two settings "mean"...Luminance and Color.
Luminance means brightness i.e. some combination of the R G & B pixel values. Colour is a function of the difference between the R G & B pixel values. Colour noise will disappear if you convert to monochrome; luminance noise will be unchanged.
Quote:
Is there a better method of noise-reduction?
Wavelet noise reduction? Probably something like this is implemented in e.g. Noise Ninja.
Quote:
how do I then move into Element to do my final editing and sharpening and saving to jpeg etc without altering the original RAW file?
I don't think you do alter the actual image in the raw file, just the pointers to sharpness / saturation / contrast / brightness etc. that the computer uses to interpret the raw image.
To get the image into Elements, export as 16-bit TIFF.
Quote:
I could definitely notice a benefit in picking out highlight detail with one of my shots!
Not surprising really as the raw image in a 40D has 14 bit resolution, JPEG format has at most 8.
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sjaszczak
A Real Gentleman
Reged: 08/06/2005
Posts: 1077
Loc: York
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Quote:
Re (4), after you've finished editing you probably want to 'Save As' *.tif (lossless) rather than *.jpg (lossy), to preserve all that hard earned, improved detail!
This brings me to another question... as jpeg for display online. Surely the jpegs from RAW will still look better online than the out-of-camera jpegs look online?
Is saving as tiff really online worthwhile if you are planning on printing the picture?
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Steve
My Flickr
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Overread
old hand
Reged: 17/01/2008
Posts: 758
Loc: UK; Suffolk
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A high quality jpeg and a RAW jpeg (the jpeg saved at the same time as the RAW file in the camera) will look the same. The diffence in controls comes only with the actual RAW file - the jpeg still has the in-camera processing performed on it.
As for the Tiff - the advantage is that every time you open and save a jpeg it loses parts of hte data becuase of the compression used = Tiff does not use such a compression program (and thus these files are bigger and often too big for web use - they would take far too long to load up). Thus a Tiff will stay the same whilst a jpeg will degrade over time.
Thus saving in Tiff is good when you have a shot just so and don't want to lose it
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My photography blog
http://overread.wordpress.com
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sjaszczak
A Real Gentleman
Reged: 08/06/2005
Posts: 1077
Loc: York
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Quote:
and then open it in elements for sharpening, noise reductin and such
How do you achieve noise reduction in elements? I can't see a setting for this...only in the Camera Raw settings do I see options for noise reduction.
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Steve
My Flickr
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Overread
old hand
Reged: 17/01/2008
Posts: 758
Loc: UK; Suffolk
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For noise reduction go to
filter - noise - reduce noise
I tend to use the following rough settings
strength 10
preserver details 30% ish
reduce colour noise 25-30%
also - some links to good info
Juza articles
guides to editing
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My photography blog
http://overread.wordpress.com
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sjaszczak
A Real Gentleman
Reged: 08/06/2005
Posts: 1077
Loc: York
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Quote:
A high quality jpeg and a RAW jpeg (the jpeg saved at the same time as the RAW file in the camera) will look the same. The diffence in controls comes only with the actual RAW file - the jpeg still has the in-camera processing performed on it.
Sorry, that's not quite what I meant..
I was refering to the difference in quality between a jpeg developed on my PC from a RAW file, and the jpeg that comes out of the camera. There would still be a visible difference when viewed online..that's what I was getting at...
i.e. RAW processing shouldn't just be used if you plan on printing the image.
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Steve
My Flickr
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Overread
old hand
Reged: 17/01/2008
Posts: 758
Loc: UK; Suffolk
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oh yes - the RAW image will look different after processing, mostly as you have a greater control over the image and so and tweak it so that it gets just how the image should look/you want it to look.
since I have been recently using RAW mode I don't tend to ever touch the jpegs versions, but they are usefull for scrolling though to pick out the keepers on the comptuer as they tend to load quicker - then I just note down the number and then open up the RAWs
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My photography blog
http://overread.wordpress.com
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PhilW
Blue Peter Badge Winner
Reged: 14/03/2007
Posts: 921
Loc: Near Wakefield, Yorkshire
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Quote:
Thus a Tiff will stay the same whilst a jpeg will degrade over time.
Only if you subesquently edit it further. A Jpg that you save and then view only will remain as it was created.
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Phil Winterbourne
http://www.pbase.com/calis
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sjaszczak
A Real Gentleman
Reged: 08/06/2005
Posts: 1077
Loc: York
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Quote:
Quote:
Thus a Tiff will stay the same whilst a jpeg will degrade over time.
Only if you subesquently edit it further. A Jpg that you save and then view only will remain as it was created.
Yeah, my thinking is that if I get a good workflow going with RAW development then I will just save as jpegs...and that if I decide to go back and edit then I will go all the way back to RAW. But I guess the key is to get it right first time round 
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Steve
My Flickr
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El Sid
Going potty
Reged: 14/04/2003
Posts: 9296
Loc: Sussex-by-the-Sea
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Anything I have that's work in progress I save as PSD (PhotoShop format) and reserve JPG only for those files that are ready for print or web display.
Since Adobe have a file format that is specifically designed for PhotoShop use I'm surprised at how few people seem to use it... In have had more than a few issues with TIFF files not saving layers, masks and channels properly that I avoid using them as much as possible...
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Nigel
Completely BSRIPN 
ElSid Gallery
A camera in the hand is better than one in the cupboard........
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Monobod
'Phantom' of the forum!
Reged: 03/04/2003
Posts: 5790
Loc: Just West of Norwich, Norfolk
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I use psd when I remember to do so......
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David.
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Photos hosted by Flickr.
www.flickr.com/photos/monobod/
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I see the world thro' a viewfinder, but the world watches me via CCTV!
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