photogeek
Professor Yaffle
Reged: 02/01/2007
Posts: 214
Loc: Londonish
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I am thinking of putting together an M6 kit with a 50mm, 90mm and 35mm Lens.
Now there are a number of variations on each of these
e.g. 50mm F2 Sumicron (Collapsable/fixed) f2.8 Elmar etc etc.
The question is apart from speed of aperture is there any difference in sharpness of the types? What lenses should I be going for - I plan to buy 2nd hand from dealers (as I can not afford new).
Should be greatful for any advice.
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Be yourself you know its true and in the end whats left is you.....
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BrianT
Old Hand
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 5987
Loc: Leeds
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Sorry to sound negative but the question you ask would fill a book.
Unfortunately the only way you can go is to decide how much you can afford and go for it. As an example the three lenses you mention could cost as little as £450 or as much as £7,917!!!!!! Do you see the problem?
But if it's any use I would suggest 35mm Summaron, 50mm Summicron and a 90mm Tele Elmar, look for good condition from the 60/70/80s and budget for around the £13/1,400 mark. Although if I was starting from scratch I would buy an MP with a standard new Summicron and save up for the rest.
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PeteE
enthusiast
Reged: 23/08/2005
Posts: 377
Loc: BRENTWOOD,Essex
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I have a 1986 M6 with a 35mm f1.4 Canadian Summilux, a 50mm f2 Summicron bought new and a 1957 f4 collapsible Elmar. The 35mm suffers badly from coma at f1.4 and at that aperture is very soft. I keep the Elmar un-collapsed or the locking mechanism dosen't work properly. It is sharp OK. The Summicron is no better than my Pentax 50mm f1.4 or 1.7 lenses.
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Got COMPUTERISED at last and now Digitised but FILM still RULES!
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Mark_Norton
Reged: 29/06/2002
Posts: 1113
Loc: London, UK
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Pointless making a comparison with Pentax lenses since they will not fit an M8. If they are are as good as Leica lenses, they've certainly come on some way since the last Pentax lens I used.
If you want 3 good quality lenses, I'd recommend the following:
- Summicron-M 1:2/35 - this is the last of the different 35/2 generations before the ASPH version, you will see it referred to as the Summicron IV. Just lovely.
- Summicron-M 1:2/50 - if you get a recent lens, it's one of the best non-ASPH lenses Leica makes.
- Elmarit-M 1:2.8/90 - lovely compact telephoto with built in hood.
All three are codeable, ready for your move to the fabulous Leica M8 in due course.
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Mark
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BrianT
Old Hand
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 5987
Loc: Leeds
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Actually Mark, Pete is right in his comparison. That is if you only take MTF graphs as the benchmark. The current Summicron scores 4.6, the Pentax F1.4 equals that however the F1.7 comes out at a mere grade 4.4. 
The Zeiss Planar 45mm F2 beats them all with a mighty 4.7, I might be wrong but hasn't the 50mm Planar got an M mount? and new at half the price of the Leitz version. In fact perhaps this might be 'Cue' Mr Kyobashi. Enter stage left.
Personally though I couldn't give a tinkers cuss for graphs and statistics. My favourite Leitz lens is the collapsible Elmar F2.8. I find modern Leica lenses too 'clinical' in their drawing, their ' Bokha '(sp ?) is contrived and overall their lenses lack plasticity......Jesus next I shall be clutching my left boob and croaking the ' Star Spangled Banner' or whatever the colonials do in times of stress and emotion.
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Brian BSRIPN
Oh for the days when Elvis was king and everything else was a 50th @ F11.
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photogeek
Professor Yaffle
Reged: 02/01/2007
Posts: 214
Loc: Londonish
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The main lens we want is the 90mm for location portraiture, my gut instinct is to go for the F2 version, but this often seems cheaper than the F2.8 and normally I am a believer that you get what you pay for. This does not always seem to be the case with Leica as rareity and collectability are often as important as just quality
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Be yourself you know its true and in the end whats left is you.....
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TimF
Senior Member
Reged: 30/07/2001
Posts: 15938
Loc: Herts/Beds border
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I'd agree with you that the 90mm Summicron is a better lens than any of the f/2.8 options (unless size/weight is the over-riding factor). The older f/4 Elmar has it's own charms, and would be my choice amongst slower Leica lenses at that focal length. As Brian wisely says though, don't ignore Kobayashi san. The Voigtlander 90mm/3.5 Apo-Lanthar is said to be a cracking lens for the money.
I'm also in full agreement with Brian on the merits of Leica's current lenses; on the merit side they are amazingly sharp, but to my mind are somewhat clinical compared to the older lenses. Given the modish perception of today, that technical quality assumes a far greater dominance over photographic communication in a picture than is good for it, that's fine. Personally I'll opt for the older glass, even with their abberations, 99% of the time. They have character in bucketloads.
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Tim BSRIPN
The camera makes everyone a tourist in other people's reality, and eventually in one's own - Susan Sontag
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TimF
Senior Member
Reged: 30/07/2001
Posts: 15938
Loc: Herts/Beds border
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Just an after-thought. Have you considered a two-lens outfit, of 35mm and 75mm instead? Our chum Mr Hicks has been using this for around a year, after using a 90mm for many years beforehand, and his opinion is that the 75mm is a terrific portrait objective.
As an aside, the 75mm framelines are also usefully larger than those for the 90mm.
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Tim BSRIPN
The camera makes everyone a tourist in other people's reality, and eventually in one's own - Susan Sontag
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Mark_Norton
Reged: 29/06/2002
Posts: 1113
Loc: London, UK
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Well, Brian, at least you and I agree that poring over MTF graphs is a thankless task. I also agree the collapsible Elmar is an interesting lens in the way it, well, collapses, but the zenith of Leica/Leitz's lens design skills it is not.
You won't be surprised to hear that I don't agree with your characterisation of "modern Leica lenses". I assume by "clinical" that you mean the lenses are too sharp and too contrasty and by "contrived Bokeh" that it is too well controlled and pleasant to look at. As for plasticity, I have no idea what you mean, perhaps this is some unfathomable oblique reference to the use of plastic in Canon lens barrels...
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Mark
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Mark_Norton
Reged: 29/06/2002
Posts: 1113
Loc: London, UK
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Gosh, the Grumpy Old Men have been let out for the day. Good Morning, Tim.
If you're interested in a fast 90, the pre-ASPH 90mm Summicron is good value at around £600 for a good example, for example, from ffordes.
Keep in mind though that both 75mm and 90mm focal lengths are difficult to focus when you are shooting wide-open, so a viewfinder magnifier (or else a camera with the 0.85mm viewfinder magnification) is a real plus.
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Mark
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BrianT
Old Hand
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 5987
Loc: Leeds
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Quote:
Given the modish perception of today, that technical quality assumes a far greater dominance over photographic communication in a picture than is good for it, that's fine. Personally I'll opt for the older glass, even with their abberations, 99% of the time. They have character in bucketloads.
Cor you don't arf talk posh.
And of course the finish and attention to detail with proper Leitz lenses put their modern counterparts into the shade.
Quote:
The Voigtlander 90mm/3.5 Apo-Lanthar is said to be a cracking lens for the money.
Money didn't come into it Tim, it's a little cracker.
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Brian BSRIPN
Oh for the days when Elvis was king and everything else was a 50th @ F11.
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Mark_Norton
Reged: 29/06/2002
Posts: 1113
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
And of course the finish and attention to detail with proper Leitz lenses put their modern counterparts into the shade.
Brian, I expect you'll go apoplectic when I tell you the new 75mm and 90mm Summarits have, wait for it... rubber finger grips! What is the world coming to? The end of civilisation as Ernst Leitz knew it!
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Mark
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BrianT
Old Hand
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 5987
Loc: Leeds
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Quote:
but the zenith of Leica/Leitz's lens design skills it is not.
Mark I never said it was, indeed as far as I am concerned "zenith of anything" can rarely be equated with desirability.
Rubber grips Mark? How dreadful. But what more can you expect, these lenses are made for the working classes.
Re 'Plasticity'. I have a friend who uses the term 'painterly'. Well he is a 'Fine Arts' graduate. I know what he means though. It's almost a tangible roundness, indeed softness to an image, a flowing smoothness of sharpness to softness. A more tangible explanation. I am fortunate in owning a complete run of Leica Fotografia from 1956- 1980. looking through these magazines one can see a technical progression and indeed make side by side comparisons. Whilst the illustrations get sharper and more grain free they loose a certain, one could almost say a naievity that for many of us is an attraction.
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Brian BSRIPN
Oh for the days when Elvis was king and everything else was a 50th @ F11.
Edited by BrianT (03/10/2007 10:03)
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photogeek
Professor Yaffle
Reged: 02/01/2007
Posts: 214
Loc: Londonish
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Quote:
Keep in mind though that both 75mm and 90mm focal lengths are difficult to focus when you are shooting wide-open, so a viewfinder magnifier (or else a camera with the 0.85mm viewfinder magnification) is a real plus.
I had already decided to go for one with a 0.85 viewfinder, and the 75mm is a good idea but they seem to be as rare as hens teeth, so have not had a chance to test. The 90mm through the .85x is fine though.
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Be yourself you know its true and in the end whats left is you.....
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TimF
Senior Member
Reged: 30/07/2001
Posts: 15938
Loc: Herts/Beds border
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Quote:
Cor you don't arf talk posh.
Only in this room, geezer!
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Tim BSRIPN
The camera makes everyone a tourist in other people's reality, and eventually in one's own - Susan Sontag
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TimF
Senior Member
Reged: 30/07/2001
Posts: 15938
Loc: Herts/Beds border
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Quote:
Re 'Plasticity'. I have a friend who uses the term 'painterly'. Well he is a 'Fine Arts' graduate. I know what he means though. It's almost a tangible roundness, indeed softness to an image, a flowing smoothness of sharpness to softness.
Indeed. A photo is, as we don't need reminding of surely, a merely two-dimensional thing. A lens with good plasticity can however, suggest that third dimension of depth.
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Tim BSRIPN
The camera makes everyone a tourist in other people's reality, and eventually in one's own - Susan Sontag
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TimF
Senior Member
Reged: 30/07/2001
Posts: 15938
Loc: Herts/Beds border
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Quote:
[I assume you mean] by "contrived Bokeh" that it is too well controlled and pleasant to look at.
Huh? Many's the time I've read commments that some of the earlier Asph lenses' (at least) bokeh is harsh by comparison with their predecessors.
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Tim BSRIPN
The camera makes everyone a tourist in other people's reality, and eventually in one's own - Susan Sontag
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 36162
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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I like that C/V 90, too - a very, very nice lens indeed.
Must say that I also personally prefer the character of the older lenses - just as well, as I can't afford the ASPHs. I also use a collapsible Elmar on my M3 - of course it's not a patch in many ways on more modern glass, but I like the look it produces. Equally, the 40mm Sumicron-C is one of my most favourite lenses, and as Leitz envisaged, makes a credible two-lens set with a 90mm.
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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topoxforddoc
newbie
Reged: 27/07/2007
Posts: 29
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At the moment, I would go for a 35 and a 90. The M8 has led to a rise in 75 prices and you won't get a second hand leica 75 lens for less than a grand. The 90s are good value at the moment. Your budget could range from £150 for a 90/4 CLE Rokkor M (great travel lens) to £200 for a 90/2.8 Tele-Elmarit (light and some samples can be prone to flare) up to the £5-600 mark for a pre-asph 90/2 summicron or a 90/2.8 Elmarit M (current version). Personally, I would probably go for a tele-elmarit; it's relatively cheap, generally is good and will resell with minimal loss if you don't like it.
As for the 35, either a 35/2 pre-asph summicron or a 35/1.4 pre-asph summilux would fit the bill, depending on how much low light ability you need.
Charlie
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bagpuss
Prolific Pam
Reged: 08/04/2006
Posts: 8798
Loc: Camulodunum
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Quote:
Quote:
Keep in mind though that both 75mm and 90mm focal lengths are difficult to focus when you are shooting wide-open, so a viewfinder magnifier (or else a camera with the 0.85mm viewfinder magnification) is a real plus.
I had already decided to go for one with a 0.85 viewfinder
**cough cough**
Sorry, who had decided to go with the .85?
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I wish I could be elegant - Robert Mapplethorpe
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